Disarmed by uninformed officer

[Smokey613]

As is the case for many stories, we are only getting one side of this event. That disclaimer aside, if the events did occur as stated the officer did not exhibit professionalism in his actions. While I agree there are too many statutes to remember them all, we as LEO should be familar with the most common / important that relate to public safety. Locally, our LEO community was very pro-active in educating the public as well as officers on the LTC laws. Our Sheriff and police chief held several public forums to educate everyone on the subject. This has resulted in no incidents similar to the OP reported to date in our area. The only negative is the overreaction of the County Commissioners Court that I reported in another post. I personally think that was "forced" by the judiciary.

I might also add, since returning to active LE duty last year, I keep updated PDFs of most of the Texas laws I may need on my iPhone so I can reference them if needed.

[canvasbck]

1) You need a better retention holster.

2) I would not have gone back in but would have got out, just in case the cop changed his mind and decided he was in the right and wanted to make an arrest.

1) Retention level was irrelevant in this case, the only reason he was able to disarm me was because I chose to allow it rather than escalating the situation. Had I chosen to not allow him to disarm, the situation would have likely become deadly VERY quickly.

2) Had he arrested me after I complied with the effective verbal notice, the legal repercussions would have went way beyond a complaint to his boss.

[Smokey613]

1) You need a better retention holster.

2) I would not have gone back in but would have got out, just in case the cop changed his mind and decided he was in the right and wanted to make an arrest.

1) Retention level was irrelevant in this case, the only reason he was able to disarm me was because I chose to allow it rather than escalating the situation. Had I chosen to not allow him to disarm, the situation would have likely become deadly VERY quickly.

2) Had he arrested me after I complied with the effective verbal notice, the legal repercussions would have went way beyond a complaint to his boss.

You acted correctly in this situation. No need to escalate to a possible injurous outcome. I am sure a call to the Sheriff will result in corrective measures. Maybe you could recommend an educational opportunity for the community by the Sheriff's Dept.

[Solaris]

2) Had he arrested me after I complied with the effective verbal notice, the legal repercussions would have went way beyond a complaint to his boss.

YMMV.

If I can avoid those "legal repercussions" by shopping somewhere else, I will. Cuffed, booked, jailed, CHL suspended, legal fees, etc., is not for me.

Never mind the thought of giving just one dollar to a business that treated me like that will never happen in my lifetime.

[JP171]

Okay legal eagles and LEOs. A LEO has the right to disarm us, but is this manner within their rights? If not, how does this not fall into the category of assault? Is it just because it was a LEO? If so, that doesn't seem right.

I kinda agree with you but, as the officer understood the law(no matter how wrong) it is illegal to bring a firearm into a liquor store under the 51%provision he was acting within the color of his authority(again no matter how wrong he was) he it seems possibly chose a different route than arresting and charging the OP by removing the weapon from the OP and the store. Yes his training is apparently substandard or he ignored it and is willfully ignorant and negligent but if he had chosen to call the local PD it would have been more of a pain as well if the local pd agreed with him.

While it is illegal to carry an unlicensed handgun into a liquor store, but it is not illegal to carry if one is LTC - openly or concealed.


From TABC


Off-Premise Retail Establishment

Four signs are required to be posted at an off-premise retail establishment such as a convenience store or grocery store.
•Weapons Warning Sign: It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law.
•Consumption Warning Sign: It is a crime (misdemeanor) to consume liquor or beer on these premises.
•Public Information/Complaint Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
•National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous.

The 51% sign pertains to on premises consumption establishments.

On-Premise Retail Establishment

Four signs are required to be posted at an on-premise retail establishment such as a bar or restaurant.
•Weapons Warning Sign - If alcohol sales constitute less than half of gross receipts, the required sign says: "It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law." If alcohol sales constitute more than half of gross receipts, the signs have 51% in large red letters superimposed over the warning which notes that possession of a concealed weapon on the premises is a felony.
•Public Information/Complaint Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
•National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous. (Restaurants that hold a Food and Beverage Certificate are exempt from this requirement.)
•Health Risk Warning Sign: Warning of the dangers associated with drinking alcoholic beverages during pregnancy. Visit our Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders page for more information.



https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/sign_requirements.asp

just curious, did you read the parts in parenthesis? I did say he was and is wrong you really didn't need to add to the other 20 posts telling me about it. and no I am not specifically picking on you Puma just tired of being told that I am wrong about 40 gazillion times when I said he was wrong in my post in the first place

[Glockedandlocked]

Report it to the Sheriff, the department needs to do some more training and inform the deputies of what the laws actually say before they are on the receiving end of a civil suit.

By reaching out and touching you with no probable cause or your permission he actually committed an assault and theft by taking your legally carried weapon without legal authority to do so.

In order to take action we have to be in a place we are authorized to be, have reasonable suspicion that a crime is occurring or has occurred, or witness the act in question.

There are a lot of things officers do under color of office while lacking the actual authority to do them.

It is impossible for us to know every law, but easy to make a mistake based on misinformation.

[One Shot]

If employed by the business as a security guard, would the business be civilly liable for his actions outside the law? In his position, i would think he would reasonably be considered negligent in not knowing the laws that apply to the business he was hired to "guard".

[Bryanmc]

If employed by the business as a security guard, would the business be civilly liable for his actions outside the law? In his position, i would think he would reasonably be considered negligent in not knowing the laws that apply to the business he was hired to "guard".

This is a good point. He was not acting as a deputy, he was acting as a hired security guard. While he should know the law because of his "day job", he was acting as an employee of the business, not the SO. He stepped way outside the lines. At least that's how I see it.

[puma guy]

Okay legal eagles and LEOs. A LEO has the right to disarm us, but is this manner within their rights? If not, how does this not fall into the category of assault? Is it just because it was a LEO? If so, that doesn't seem right.

I kinda agree with you but, as the officer understood the law(no matter how wrong) it is illegal to bring a firearm into a liquor store under the 51%provision he was acting within the color of his authority(again no matter how wrong he was) he it seems possibly chose a different route than arresting and charging the OP by removing the weapon from the OP and the store. Yes his training is apparently substandard or he ignored it and is willfully ignorant and negligent but if he had chosen to call the local PD it would have been more of a pain as well if the local pd agreed with him.

While it is illegal to carry an unlicensed handgun into a liquor store, but it is not illegal to carry if one is LTC - openly or concealed.


From TABC


Off-Premise Retail Establishment

Four signs are required to be posted at an off-premise retail establishment such as a convenience store or grocery store.
•Weapons Warning Sign: It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law.
•Consumption Warning Sign: It is a crime (misdemeanor) to consume liquor or beer on these premises.
•Public Information/Complaint Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
•National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous.

The 51% sign pertains to on premises consumption establishments.

On-Premise Retail Establishment

Four signs are required to be posted at an on-premise retail establishment such as a bar or restaurant.
•Weapons Warning Sign - If alcohol sales constitute less than half of gross receipts, the required sign says: "It is unlawful to carry a weapon on the premises unless the person is licensed to carry the weapon under the concealed handgun law." If alcohol sales constitute more than half of gross receipts, the signs have 51% in large red letters superimposed over the warning which notes that possession of a concealed weapon on the premises is a felony.
•Public Information/Complaint Sign - If you have a complaint about the sale or service of alcoholic beverages in this establishment, please contact the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, PO Box 13127, Austin, Texas 78711-3127, or phone 1-888-THE-TABC.
•National Human Trafficking Hotline Number (English and Spanish) - WARNING: Obtaining forced labor or services is a crime under Texas law. Call the national human trafficking hotline: 1-888-373-7888. You may remain anonymous. (Restaurants that hold a Food and Beverage Certificate are exempt from this requirement.)
•Health Risk Warning Sign: Warning of the dangers associated with drinking alcoholic beverages during pregnancy. Visit our Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders page for more information.



https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/sign_requirements.asp

just curious, did you read the parts in parenthesis? I did say he was and is wrong you really didn't need to add to the other 20 posts telling me about it. and no I am not specifically picking on you Puma just tired of being told that I am wrong about 40 gazillion times when I said he was wrong in my post in the first place

Yes. I read your entire post. I only responded to your statement pertaining to carrying in a liquor store and the 51% rule which is misleading. Someone may read your post and think they aren't legally allowed to do that if they are licensed which is not true. 51% signs have nothing to do with liquor stores. Adding the information from TABC website explains that a 51% sign has nothing to do with a liquor store and only applies to on premises consumption establishments hopefully may educate someone about when and where they are allowed to carry in establishments that sell and/or serve alcohol. Someone who may read your statement and think they can't carry into a liquor store with an LTC. When you or any one states

it is illegal to bring a firearm into a liquor store under the 51%provision

I will point out that it's incorrect, nothing personal. I wish you all the best

[jkurtz]

If employed by the business as a security guard, would the business be civilly liable for his actions outside the law? In his position, i would think he would reasonably be considered negligent in not knowing the laws that apply to the business he was hired to "guard".

This is a good point. He was not acting as a deputy, he was acting as a hired security guard. While he should know the law because of his "day job", he was acting as an employee of the business, not the SO. He stepped way outside the lines. At least that's how I see it.

I think that would depend on the specific conditions in which he was there, similar to how private security works. The difference is who the liquor store pays for his services. They could have (I) paid him directly or (II) paid the department he works for, which then pays him an overtime rate. In the first case he is working as an employee of the store. In the second case he is still working as an employee of his department, but is contracted to be there.

[Smokey613]

Just to clarify a point. In Texas, a commissioned peace officer has law emforcement / arrest authority 24X7 while within the state. It matters not if they are working an extra job.

[One Shot]

Just to clarify a point. In Texas, a commissioned peace officer has law emforcement / arrest authority 24X7 while within the state. It matters not if they are working an extra job.

That's clear; what I was wondering about was liability for gross incompetence behind those powers.

[G.A. Heath]

Just to clarify a point. In Texas, a commissioned peace officer has law emforcement / arrest authority 24X7 while within the state. It matters not if they are working an extra job.

That's clear; what I was wondering about was liability for gross incompetence behind those powers.

That is a difficult question to find an answer to. First he and his department are liable when he is acting as peace officer (Security guards can not legally disarm but a peace officer can, so he was acting as a peace officer at that point). The business could still be liable as well depending on a number of factors including the quality of the attorneys hired by both sides.

[atx2a]

Wow. Just wow. Bravo for showing such restraint.

IMO, it was a power play. As was mentioned, he was basically accusing you of committing a felony (based on his "understanding" of the law). YET, he did not arrest you for said felony. Either a) he realized he was in the wrong, or b) it was a power play all along.

In either case, I would have a friendly conversation with the Sheriff and let him know that you WILL be filing a formal complaint. But that you wanted to tell him, your friend, in person first as a show of respect.

The file it. Soon. That deputy was WAY out of line, and I agree that a paper trail is called for.

Oh, and find a new liquor store.

[Mavs00]

Yikes... What a story. I'm new to TX, but not new to carrying.

I did not see this in the OP, but once he "disarmed" you, did he clear and rendered your weapon safe, prior to handing it off to a 3rd (unknown to him) party? I presume (not mentioned in the OP) he did not check to determine your wife's LTC status, outstanding warrants or her past criminal history prior to arming her ? Based on your apprehension of him delivering an unholstered weapon to her, I'd tend to think he did not.

I would want to report to his department, if for no other reason then he could use some serious retraining (IMO). 1 is on the law (below) itself (as has been noted), and 2 is just disregard for his own safety.

1) Leaving the methods he took aside..... If he is moonlighting as a security guard in another county other then his primary jurisdiction, Is he really acting in the "lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties". Also, was it "reasonable" for him to think that it was necessary to disarm you for everyone protection under those circumstances? The law seems pretty specific to me. Look at it this way, if some plain clothed person approaches you, flashes some tin and says "he's the law" and want's to disarm you for his/our own safety (assuming you are legally carrying)? Would you just comply? That's hyperbole of course, but still... the point remains?

2) This is just a basic safety thing to me. Why the heck would he just hand YOUR weapon to an unknown (I presume he does not know your wife) 3rd person. For all he knows, he just armed a convicted felon? Or some other person that should not, or could not be in possession of a weapon? If he did not hand it to you directly, then place it on the passenger seat where YOU can take possession of it. That's what the statue directs (see below). Seems pretty reckless to introduce a third party (that he doesn't know) into the situation that involves a potential deadly weapon??? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me (for him). It's also a violation for him to do so.

Did he ever even check your LTC status?

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
(a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace
officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, {snip.....}