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I think the point of the legislation is that absent an orange tip or other obvious indicator, one would not be able to tell the difference between an imitation firearm and a real one.KLB wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:44 am I can understand enhancing penalties for brandishing an imitation firearm, but I have misgivings for making the penalties the same as for a real one. That it's an imitation indicates there's no intention to harm anyone, so it seems a less serious offense to me.
Of course, brandishing an imitation firearm is stupid in that LEOs will reasonably perceive it as real.
The intent of the criminal using an imitation firearm is to cause the FEAR of bodily harm. They don't want to kill anyone, but they want to make it look like they are willing to kill someone to force the compliance. I see this change as legitimate especially since this only comes into play when the person is already committing a crime such as robbery.KLB wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:44 am I can understand enhancing penalties for brandishing an imitation firearm, but I have misgivings for making the penalties the same as for a real one. That it's an imitation indicates there's no intention to harm anyone, so it seems a less serious offense to me.
Of course, brandishing an imitation firearm is stupid in that LEOs will reasonably perceive it as real.
Aggravated Robbery in Texas at one time and probably still is defined as "Robbery committed using a weapon or the threat of a weapon". As I was taught a weapon doesn't have to be present, just saying "I have a weapon (Knife, Gun, etc.) or flashing a fake is enough.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pmThe intent of the criminal using an imitation firearm is to cause the FEAR of bodily harm. They don't want to kill anyone, but they want to make it look like they are willing to kill someone to force the compliance. I see this change as legitimate especially since this only comes into play when the person is already committing a crime such as robbery.KLB wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:44 am I can understand enhancing penalties for brandishing an imitation firearm, but I have misgivings for making the penalties the same as for a real one. That it's an imitation indicates there's no intention to harm anyone, so it seems a less serious offense to me.
Of course, brandishing an imitation firearm is stupid in that LEOs will reasonably perceive it as real.
This also gives LTC holders a bit more leeway since we might not know that it was an imitation firearm. If we respond and shoot the person committing the crime, then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives because it looked like a real firearm and we took action to stop a felony.
I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice: Fear is not a legal requirement for justifiable use of deadly force in Texas. Completely irrelevant. What is relevant is did the mere appearance of the object cause a reasonable and prudent person to believe the item was real to pose immediate and imminent risk of grave bodily harm or death.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
... then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives
To-may-toe … To-mah-toe ..... We’re talking about the same thing…montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:20 pmI am not an attorney and this is not legal advice: Fear is not a legal requirement for justifiable use of deadly force in Texas. Completely irrelevant. What is relevant is did the mere appearance of the object cause a reasonable and prudent person to believe the item was real to pose immediate and imminent risk of grave bodily harm or death.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
... then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives
No we are not. It is fear of grave bodily harm or death versus immediate and imminent grave bodily harm or death.Skooter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:47 pmTo-may-toe … To-mah-toe ..... We’re talking about the same thing…montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:20 pmI am not an attorney and this is not legal advice: Fear is not a legal requirement for justifiable use of deadly force in Texas. Completely irrelevant. What is relevant is did the mere appearance of the object cause a reasonable and prudent person to believe the item was real to pose immediate and imminent risk of grave bodily harm or death.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
... then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives
And then a prosecutor brings up, "A toy gun. He had a toy gun in his hand and Mr. Montgomery shot him to death." A lot easier to justify on multiple fronts for you and your defense if the law treats the toy gun used in the commission of a crime the same way it treats an actual firearm.montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:14 pmNo we are not. It is fear of grave bodily harm or death versus immediate and imminent grave bodily harm or death.Skooter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:47 pmTo-may-toe … To-mah-toe ..... We’re talking about the same thing…montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:20 pmI am not an attorney and this is not legal advice: Fear is not a legal requirement for justifiable use of deadly force in Texas. Completely irrelevant. What is relevant is did the mere appearance of the object cause a reasonable and prudent person to believe the item was real to pose immediate and imminent risk of grave bodily harm or death.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
... then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives
Agreed. Point is fear is not a legal factor to satisfied justified deadly force in Texas, despite what many instructors falsely claim.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 pmAnd then a prosecutor brings up, "A toy gun. He had a toy gun in his hand and Mr. Montgomery shot him to death." A lot easier to justify on multiple fronts for you and your defense if the law treats the toy gun used in the commission of a crime the same way it treats an actual firearm.montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:14 pmNo we are not. It is fear of grave bodily harm or death versus immediate and imminent grave bodily harm or death.Skooter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:47 pmTo-may-toe … To-mah-toe ..... We’re talking about the same thing…montgomery wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:20 pmI am not an attorney and this is not legal advice: Fear is not a legal requirement for justifiable use of deadly force in Texas. Completely irrelevant. What is relevant is did the mere appearance of the object cause a reasonable and prudent person to believe the item was real to pose immediate and imminent risk of grave bodily harm or death.Papa_Tiger wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
... then we can legitimately state that we were in fear for our lives