SB 1515 is just wrong

[oohrah]

I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

[Soccerdad1995]

I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

I could probably get behind allowing schools to post religious information (of all types), but requiring public schools to post the teachings of a specific religion seems to be a clear violation of the establishment clause. Then again, IANAL.

I'm thinking this bill is more about messaging than actually requiring schools to post the commandments.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm Jewish. Was "My Guy" that brought the tablets down the mountain.

This kind of stuff is exactly the fodder Democrats use against Republicans. Bad law, worse tactically.

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/b ... 01515I.htm

[philip964]

My guy didn’t bring these down. But my guy was a follower of this guy though. He added one more “ Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self”

These are great rules to live by to have a successful and happy life.

School doesn’t want to teach morals anymore.

It would seem

A “rules to live by” would not be a bad thing to have posted in schools for kids to see.

They would need to be purged of thee, God and thou.

Some more added, like be punctual, don’t do drugs, if you find a gun, don’t touch it, tell an adult, and take pride in the work you do.

But yes, posting the Ten Commandments is wrong.

[RoyGBiv]

My guy didn’t bring these down. But my guy was a follower of this guy though. He added one more “ Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self”

These are great rules to live by to have a successful and happy life.

School doesn’t want to teach morals anymore.

It would seem

A “rules to live by” would not be a bad thing to have posted in schools for kids to see.

They would need to be purged of thee, God and thou.

Some more added, like be punctual, don’t do drugs, if you find a gun, don’t touch it, tell an adult, and take pride in the work you do.

But yes, posting the Ten Commandments is wrong.

[srothstein]

I'm Jewish. Was "My Guy" that brought the tablets down the mountain.

This kind of stuff is exactly the fodder Democrats use against Republicans. Bad law, worse tactically.

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/b ... 01515I.htm

I agree. My biggest question was which Ten Commandments do you post, the Jewish of the Christian? They are different.

But I also pointed out that the way they are listed and how I read them, the Ten Commandments monument on the Capitol grounds has eleven commandments. Posting that in a classroom for younger students, maybe third grade or around that, would drive the teachers crazy with kids asking them how they count it as ten.

[oohrah]

I agree. My biggest question was which Ten Commandments do you post, the Jewish of the Christian? They are different.

And if you are Christian, Jesus changed it to only two Commandments in Matthew 22:37-40.

[RoyGBiv]

But I also pointed out that the way they are listed and how I read them, the Ten Commandments monument on the Capitol grounds has eleven commandments. Posting that in a classroom for younger students, maybe third grade or around that, would drive the teachers crazy with kids asking them how they count it as ten.

If boys can be girls, then 11 can be 10.

While we're on the 10 Commandments.... some trivia.. I expect this is not news to most, but, FWIW.... Just as in English, the words "kill" and "murder" have different meanings. In the Hebrew 10 Commandments, the word is " רצח ", pronounced "retzach"... meaning... Murder.

NIV Exodus 20 is consistent with the use of the word "Murder".... Definitely irks me when I see it written as "Kill"...

I had a very terse discussion many years ago, when a favorite retail shop posted a no guns sign after CC was first passed in NC. The proprietor quoted "thou shall not kill" as scripture. I pointed out the above distinction between murder and kill... a few weeks later the sign was gone. Likely they heard from more than just me... but.. I'm taking credit.

[The Annoyed Man]

My guy didn’t bring these down. But my guy was a follower of this guy though. He added one more “ Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self”

These are great rules to live by to have a successful and happy life.

School doesn’t want to teach morals anymore.

It would seem

A “rules to live by” would not be a bad thing to have posted in schools for kids to see.

They would need to be purged of thee, God and thou.

Some more added, like be punctual, don’t do drugs, if you find a gun, don’t touch it, tell an adult, and take pride in the work you do.

But yes, posting the Ten Commandments is wrong.

In the "Stonemont" series of plausible post-CME survival fiction books, the author's (Steven C. Smith) main character declares that the law of the land in Stonemont shall be:

1. The Ten Commandments;
2. The Golden Rule;
3. Common Decency towards one another in private and in public life.

The character further stipulates that even though some residents may not be Christians, those are still very good rules to live by. You might be an atheist or worship a doorknob—and believe that what the religious person calls divine providence is really merely blind luck—but it is still a better way to live when one treats others as he’d want to be treated, honors one's parents, doesn’t steal or lust after what isn’t his, doesn’t murder, doesn’t bear false witness, etc., etc.

I don’t know that there were any atheists among the Founders, but there were certainly theists who believed in the existence of a divine authority, yet didn’t accept the complete Bible as their guide for life—Thomas Jefferson among them. Quoting Wikipedia…

Courtroom friezes: The South Wall Frieze includes figures of lawgivers from the ancient world and includes Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, and Augustus. The North Wall Frieze shows lawgivers from the Middle Ages on and includes representations of Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, John, King of England, Louis IX of France, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon. The Moses frieze depicts him holding the Ten Commandments, although only commandments six through ten, usually considered the more secular commands, are visible [emphasis mine ~ TAM]. In 1997, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) asked for the image of Muhammad to be removed from the marble frieze of the façade. While appreciating that Muhammad was included in the court's pantheon of 18 prominent lawgivers of history, CAIR noted that Islam discourages depictions of Muhammad in any artistic representation. CAIR also objected that Muhammad was shown with a sword, which they claimed reinforced stereotypes of Muslims as intolerant conquerors. Chief Justice William Rehnquist rejected the request to sandblast Muhammad, saying the artwork "was intended only to recognize him, among many other lawgivers, as an important figure in the history of law; it is not intended as a form of idol worship". The court later added a footnote to tourist materials, calling it "a well-intentioned attempt by the sculptor to honor Muhammad".

The concept of "law-givers" is an ancient one, and most cultures have some form of law-giver tradition in their religious underpinnings and ancient mythologies. It’s pretty much indisputable that, while Western culture certainly has many other influences (see the above mentioned other law-givers), the Judeo-Christian influence has most strongly directed the post-dark age West's eventual ethical/legal/moral underpinnings. Personally, I would go a step further and declare that the more we as a culture walk away from those underpinnings, the more we will experience continued and worsening social and political chaos.

Quoting from the second in the Stonemont series mentioned above:

"Patrick Henry said that virtue, morality and religion are the great pillars of government, and were the armor that made our country invincible in its early days. John Adams said that the U.S. Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people and that it was wholly inadequate for the government of any other. There can be no argument that those pillars cracked and crumbled in later years, or that the moral and religious underpinnings of our country dissolved in a culture increasingly consumed with self and celebrity worship. As Abraham Lincoln, Douglas Macarthur and many others warned us, the nation which could not be defeated from without was eventually weakened and defeated from within."

So while I understand that people may get offended and focus only on the idea that the first part of the Ten Commandments on public buildings somehow "forces religion down their throats", in their zeal to perceive offense, they lose sight of the fact that the rest of it teaches how we must ALL act if we’re all going to get along together as a just and unified society. If we eliminate those reminders from the public square, we deserve the results.

In a free society, you are at liberty to ignore the first several of the Ten Commandments for the simple reason that the 1st Amendment of our constitution guarantees your right to accept or reject them. You may mentally delete them, or substitute the phrase "I am your Doorknob, and you shall have no other doorknobs before me". After all, that right preexists its codification in the amendment…the amendment merely recognizing its existence and guaranteeing its protection. But you can’t really ignore the secular (for lack of a better term) commandments, because they lay down some fundamental rules about how we are to behave toward one another if we want to have a functioning and just society, and they are universally applicable—as is the Golden Rule—regardless of what one’s spiritual inclinations may be.

As a religious person myself, I freely concede that my opinion in the matter may be somewhat biased. But I would challenge my accuser to tell me what parts of commandments 6 through 10 are anathema to a free society.

Other than that, I have no opinion on the matter.

[bbhack]

Unfortunate indentation in 2 places - top and bottom. That does not fix the issue, but it's one of grouping.

I'm Jewish. Was "My Guy" that brought the tablets down the mountain.

This kind of stuff is exactly the fodder Democrats use against Republicans. Bad law, worse tactically.

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/b ... 01515I.htm

I agree. My biggest question was which Ten Commandments do you post, the Jewish of the Christian? They are different.

But I also pointed out that the way they are listed and how I read them, the Ten Commandments monument on the Capitol grounds has eleven commandments. Posting that in a classroom for younger students, maybe third grade or around that, would drive the teachers crazy with kids asking them how they count it as ten.

[EP45]

"I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment."

This one stumped me. I am in the process of looking up the the author's intent for SB1515 (Senator Phil King maybe). Why exactly is SB 1515 "wrong"?

[srothstein]

"I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment."

This one stumped me. I am in the process of looking up the the author's intent for SB1515 (Senator Phil King maybe). Why exactly is SB 1515 "wrong"?

As was pointed out, there are different versions of the Ten Commandments for different religions. In addition, there are a lot of religions that do not believe in the Ten Commandment. Whichever version you post in a government building (like a school) is establishing a specific religion as the state religion. This is a violation of the exact wording of the First Amendment.

About the only way I could see it being legal is if you posted it with things like Hammurabi's Code, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution, making it a display on the history of law.

[EP45]

"I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment."

This one stumped me. I am in the process of looking up the the author's intent for SB1515 (Senator Phil King maybe). Why exactly is SB 1515 "wrong"?

As was pointed out, there are different versions of the Ten Commandments for different religions. In addition, there are a lot of religions that do not believe in the Ten Commandment. Whichever version you post in a government building (like a school) is establishing a specific religion as the state religion. This is a violation of the exact wording of the First Amendment.

About the only way I could see it being legal is if you posted it with things like Hammurabi's Code, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution, making it a display on the history of law.

Which specific religion?

[EP45]

Is this wrong?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Comma ... in,_Texas)

https://texaschlforum.com/download/file ... &mode=view

[bbhack]

"I can't believe anyone would support having the government tell us what religion we should be posting. This a clear violation of the 1st Amendment."

This one stumped me. I am in the process of looking up the the author's intent for SB1515 (Senator Phil King maybe). Why exactly is SB 1515 "wrong"?

As was pointed out, there are different versions of the Ten Commandments for different religions. In addition, there are a lot of religions that do not believe in the Ten Commandment. Whichever version you post in a government building (like a school) is establishing a specific religion as the state religion. This is a violation of the exact wording of the First Amendment.

About the only way I could see it being legal is if you posted it with things like Hammurabi's Code, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution, making it a display on the history of law.

As for variations in the Decalogue, it's all a matter of grouping, of commas and sentences and parens. Thanks for bringing this up. I know more than I did yesterday.