An honest response from a local LEO (HB910)

[canvasbck]

Police officers and deputies have been sizing up people for a long time now and open-carry will not be any different. More people talked themselves into tickets than out of them and so too with trips to jail. LEO and public response to open-carry will change over time, but how it will change will depend upon how people carrying guns conduct themselves with LEOs and the public. Be a jerk and you'll be treated like a jerk by citizens with cell phones and responding LEOs. If, and that's a very big IF, over time people open-carrying conduct themselves responsibly and respectfully, then it will become a non-issue just as concealed-carry has been a non-issue for almost 20 years.

The biggest danger to successful implementation of open-carry is the predictable response by people who love to be on video preaching to a LEO or citizen about the meaning of the Constitution. People who scream at LEOs on video like Grisham and Watkins will make the evening news and anti-gunners will loudly proclaim "I told you so!" So will Chief Acevedo, MDA, Sen. Ellis and others. The general public will be swayed to some greater or lesser extent depending upon the frequency and severity of the incidents. The more that they are on TV or Facebook, the greater the level of LEO interaction in response to MWAG calls. This will fuel the egos and provide photo ops and a bully pulpit for those who care far more about being in the spotlight than in changing Texas gun laws to the benefit of Texans.

Handcuffs? Hour-long detentions? Running the serial number on your handgun? Really? Going into a new era where open-carry is legal with that attitude will go a long way toward making dire predictions come true. People spoiling for a fight can usually fine one. Most COPs are mirrors; be respectful to them and they will respond in kind.

Chas.

This is exactly why I have said before, and will continue to contend, that it is important for some of us who tend to be more level headed to at least occasionally OC in locations where it will not be viewed as extremism. And, when asked for ID by LE politely comply. If we allow the extremists in the pro 2A camp to be the face of the firearms community, we will lose in the court of public opinion.

Once OC becomes law the vision the public needs to have of OCers is the well dressed individual sitting in the cafe or shopping at the grocery store not forcing his/her values on others and not flaunting themselves and what they are doing. Like it or not, the perception of OCers will be a reflection on all who chose to carry.

I refuse to let the likes of Watkins, Grisham, and the youtube addicts who park at an urban gas station so they can take a walk down a busy street until the police show up so they can tell the cops how much they know about the constitution represent me.

[mr1337]

Austin's PD has never been inattentive to spurious MWAG calls, so I'm not sure. Remember, they're the ones (under the notorious Acevedo) who put up that huge billboard, right by the freeway, saying "Tell us about your neighbor who has a gun."

Haven't seen that one yet. Where is it located?

[mojo84]

Charles,
I agree with everything you've said regarding attitude and mutual respect. I think the majority of the time it depends on how we respond to the officer whether it is a good stop or not. I also believe there will be situations in certain jurisdictions where the long detentions, running serial numbers etc will happen. That doesn't mean people should respond with belligerence on the side of the road.

Just for perspective, I have been stopped twice in the last eight months or so for minor equipment violations. Neither time was I disarmed and neither stop could have been more friendly and congenial. However, each stop took approximately 20 minutes from the time the officer hit his lights and the time I drove away with a written warning.

If a cop wants to string something out for whatever reason and slow roll a contact, it can be done easily. Just as easy as it is to come up with a factual pretext for a stop. I am sure it will happen as there are overzealous, under trained, gung ho cops out there that will cherish the opportunity to harass someone. Unfortunately, I think I may be related to one.

Again, I am 100% with you on the good attitude gets better results the large majority of the time. I also believe cops typically respond to respect with respect. I've said elsewhere that I will go along with showing ID if I chose to open carry and get stopped till the newness wears off and people get more accustomed to open carry.

[Tracker]

I'm thinking the biggest advocates say of normalizing OC will come from women choosing to OC. My wife is about as non threatening as it gets. Other women seeing her OCing her sig P238 would first be stunned that someone who looks and dresses like her at Wal Mart would ever carry. Visually, She's a far cry from MWAG dressed in camo walking the streets with his AR.

[Ruark]

Austin's PD has never been inattentive to spurious MWAG calls, so I'm not sure. Remember, they're the ones (under the notorious Acevedo) who put up that huge billboard, right by the freeway, saying "Tell us about your neighbor who has a gun."

Haven't seen that one yet. Where is it located?

It's probably gone now. That was 2 or 3 years ago, maybe more.

[Ruark]

I also believe cops typically respond to respect with respect. I've said elsewhere that I will go along with showing ID if I chose to open carry and get stopped till the newness wears off and people get more accustomed to open carry.

I disagree. The overwhelming majority of cops I've encountered have responded to my "yes sir, no sir" respect with a litany of personal questions. Where are you going today, sir? Shopping? Do you work in Austin? Oh, you're retired? Where did you retire from? When was that? What did you do there? etc. etc. etc.

Just for the record, I'm never, never belligerent or rude to LEOs. I might say, with excruciating politeness, "Uh, sir, we'd like to be moving along here, is there anything else I can help you with?" From there, depending on how it goes, I might proceed to the "am I being detained?" script. But again, always with extreme politeness. Regardless, I have a very clear limit on how far I will allow such a conversation to go.

[joelamosobadiah]

I also believe cops typically respond to respect with respect. I've said elsewhere that I will go along with showing ID if I chose to open carry and get stopped till the newness wears off and people get more accustomed to open carry.

I disagree. The overwhelming majority of cops I've encountered have responded to my "yes sir, no sir" respect with a litany of personal questions. Where are you going today, sir? Shopping? Do you work in Austin? Oh, you're retired? Where did you retire from? When was that? What did you do there? etc. etc. etc.

Just for the record, I'm never, never belligerent or rude to LEOs. I might say, with excruciating politeness, "Uh, sir, we'd like to be moving along here, is there anything else I can help you with?" From there, depending on how it goes, I might proceed to the "am I being detained?" script. But again, always with extreme politeness. Regardless, I have a very clear limit on how far I will allow such a conversation to go.

Could be a number of circumstances, but my experience is a far cry from yours. I have never even remotely considered going to the "am I being detained?" script because I have never felt as though I was being asked unnecessary questions or being delayed longer than necessary for the circumstance.

My contact is almost completely with LEOs in the <300,000 population areas and not Austin or Dallas which may be a difference as well.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I also believe cops typically respond to respect with respect. I've said elsewhere that I will go along with showing ID if I chose to open carry and get stopped till the newness wears off and people get more accustomed to open carry.

I disagree. The overwhelming majority of cops I've encountered have responded to my "yes sir, no sir" respect with a litany of personal questions. Where are you going today, sir? Shopping? Do you work in Austin? Oh, you're retired? Where did you retire from? When was that? What did you do there? etc. etc. etc.

Just for the record, I'm never, never belligerent or rude to LEOs. I might say, with excruciating politeness, "Uh, sir, we'd like to be moving along here, is there anything else I can help you with?" From there, depending on how it goes, I might proceed to the "am I being detained?" script. But again, always with extreme politeness. Regardless, I have a very clear limit on how far I will allow such a conversation to go.

Your post implies that you have frequent contact with LEOs. Are you stopped by a LEO often? If so, why? I drive a Corvette and I haven't been stopped more than 3 or 4 times in the last 15 years. I've never been stopped on the street, not once in 65 years.

Chas.

[mojo84]

I think many take the questions about where are you headed, where are you coming from, where do you work etc wrong. While it is not just idle chit chat to build rapport, it also isn't the great violation of the 4th Amendment some seem to think it is. It is a way for the cop to engage you so they can assess your condition and determine if there may be something nefarious going on. When they ask these questions, they are listening to your voice inflection, speech pattern, watching your physical response etc to see if you are intoxicated, excessively nervous, abnormal eye movement etc.

Like it or not, it's just them doing their job. I don't mind it as I've never had one question me to the point I thought it excessive or had become an interrogation.

By the way, getting defensive can also cause them to want to dig deeper and ask more questions as they can take that as a sign of someone hiding something.

[KD5NRH]

I drive a Corvette and I haven't been stopped more than 3 or 4 times in the last 15 years.

I think this deserves some experimentation; I'll trade you my 1997 Saturn for your Corvette, and we'll continue tracking traffic stops.

[joelamosobadiah]

I think many take the questions about where are you headed, where are you coming from, where do you work etc wrong. While it is not just idle chit chat to build rapport, it also isn't the great violation of the 4th Amendment some seem to think it is. It is a way for the cop to engage you so they can assess your condition and determine if there may be something nefarious going on. When they ask these questions, they are listening to your voice inflection, speech pattern, watching your physical response etc to see if you are intoxicated, excessively nervous, abnormal eye movement etc.

Like it or not, it's just them doing their job. I don't mind it as I've never had one question me to the point I thought it excessive or had become an interrogation.

By the way, getting defensive can also cause them to want to dig deeper and ask more questions as they can take that as a sign of someone hiding something.

I agree. And I have never gotten even those questions except when pulled over between 2-3 AM. I worked a night shift and got pulled over frequently (never ticketed) and a very brief line of questions before they realized I was going to work at an airport at 3 AM. Then they handed me back my drivers license, told me to make sure I got the tail light fixed, or slowed down the 3 MPH they pulled me over for or not make that wide right hand turn, etc.

[bigity]

I supposed I could tolerate a calm, polite request to quickly glance at my CHL and then let me go on my way, but I'm more concerned about those that are more on power trips - the ones that pull up with their cruisers with lights flashing, take your gun ("for your safety, sir"), go sit in their cars 10 minutes running your ID, ask you 25 questions about where you work, where you're going, etc. etc. etc. while a crowd gathers... while you're TRYING to just enjoy a nice Saturday afternoon stroll with your wife. Now that Dutton has been removed, this WILL happen.

Dutton? Was that the 910 amendment regarding just stopping you because you happen to be legally open carrying?

That was removed? (I have been out of town this week, I'm behind on this stuff).

EDIT: Nevermind, found the information in some of the other threads.

[Ruark]

Your post implies that you have frequent contact with LEOs. Are you stopped by a LEO often? If so, why? I drive a Corvette and I haven't been stopped more than 3 or 4 times in the last 15 years. I've never been stopped on the street, not once in 65 years.
Chas.

Heh, no, not particularly often. Just pulled over for things like a tail light being out, license plate fell off, etc. Haven't had a traffic ticket in ages. In those cases, granted, they did have a reason to detain me, because I was in violation. But asking me all those questions when detaining me for a "CHL check" when I'm not violating any law is a different matter; that would be hard to tolerate. Summarily, I guess we'll just have to wait until January 1 and see what actually happens.

[mojo84]

Your post implies that you have frequent contact with LEOs. Are you stopped by a LEO often? If so, why? I drive a Corvette and I haven't been stopped more than 3 or 4 times in the last 15 years. I've never been stopped on the street, not once in 65 years.
Chas.

Heh, no, not particularly often. Just pulled over for things like a tail light being out, license plate fell off, etc. Haven't had a traffic ticket in ages. In those cases, granted, they did have a reason to detain me, because I was in violation. But asking me all those questions when detaining me for a "CHL check" when I'm not violating any law is a different matter; that would be hard to tolerate. Summarily, I guess we'll just have to wait until January 1 and see what actually happens.

So you have had that discussion with a cop or you haven't?