a noob question

[liberty2014]

I know a few things, but theres even more things i dont know. Im embarassed to ask this question but i will swallow my pride and ask anyway. I want to put a scope on a few guns. One will be for mid range up to 300 yards with an ar in
223/5.56 and the other will go on a savage 110 cfp tactical in 300 win mag that i will use for stuff 500 yards and up. I have no idea what to look for and what means what. I do like night force but if i had that kind of money i wouldve went to yale and not TAMU. What do the numbers mean? Isnt a high magnification all that matters? What does 4x10 mean? How is different from what 4-16x40 mean? Is leupold better than nikon and if so is like bwi vs kia better or ford vs kia better? Any and all input is appreciated. God bless and gig em

[The Annoyed Man]

I know a few things, but theres even more things i dont know. Im embarassed to ask this question but i will swallow my pride and ask anyway. I want to put a scope on a few guns. One will be for mid range up to 300 yards with an ar in
223/5.56 and the other will go on a savage 110 cfp tactical in 300 win mag that i will use for stuff 500 yards and up. I have no idea what to look for and what means what. I do like night force but if i had that kind of money i wouldve went to yale and not TAMU. What do the numbers mean? Isnt a high magnification all that matters? What does 4x10 mean? How is different from what 4-16x40 mean? Is leupold better than nikon and if so is like bwi vs kia better or ford vs kia better? Any and all input is appreciated. God bless and gig em

4x10 means a fixed 4 power with a 10mm objective lens.......which would be about the size of a pencil, and really weird for a lens.

4-16x40 means a variable power scope with low magnification of 4X and high magnification of 16X and a 40mm objective lens.

In other words, the numbers that come before the "X" indicate the power of magnification, or in other terms, the number of times that an image is magnified above 1X. The number that comes after the "X" is the diameter of the objective lens of the scope (the end furthest from your eye). There are other variables, but all other things being equal, the larger the objective lens, the more light will be transmitted to the eye, and the brighter the image will appear through the ocular lens—the end closest to your eye.

Examples:

I have a Leupold VX-III scope on a Remington 700 that is a 4.5-14X50mm optic. Magnification is variable from 4.5X to 14X and the objective lens is 50mm.

I have a SWFA SS scope on an AR10 that is 5-20X50mm. Magnification is variable from 5X to 20X and the objective lens is 50mm.

I have a Leupold VX-R Firedot scope on a Ruger Gunsite Scout that is 1.5-5X33mm. Magnification is from 1.5X to 5X and the objective lens is 33mm.

I have a fixed power Burris 536AR on an AR15. Magnification is fixed at 5X and the objective lens is 36mm.

All of these scopes have been selected for the application intended for the rifle. The Remington is a medium to long range hunting rifle, and the scope's magnification and light gathering capabilities were chosen with that application in mind.

The AR10 is a strictly long range rifle (as I have it set up), and the scope is chosen accordingly. To put this into perspective, 20X on an object 1,000 yards distant would make it look about the same size as it would be to the naked eye just 50 yards distant. In other words, a 6' tall man viewed at 20X from 1,000 yards away would look the same size to my eye as he would appear unmagnified from 50 yards away.

The 1.5-5X scope on the Gunsite Scout was chosen with quick sight acquisition and long eye-relief in mind for short range hunting, inside of 300 yards or so, where higher magnifications are less of an issue. At 5X, a 6' tall man 300 yards away would look like an unmagnified 6' tall man just 60 yards away.

The Burris optic on my AR15 fulfills the same role as a fixed power ACOG.

For the AR, probably your best bet is a variable power scope in a 1-4X by whatever. That will give you usable optics from CQB out to 300-400 yards. For your Savage, there are lots of choices, but I am personally partial the the SWFA SS scopes. They are made with HD glass. They have a very well designed and illuminated tactical milling reticle, and they are available in an array of magnifications. AND, they compare VERY favorably in price against products from other premium optic manufacturers like Nightforce or Leupold. My 5-20X50 was $1,499.95, and compared very favorably to an IOR Valdata 6-24x56 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope with illuminated milling reticle ($1,949.95) and a Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope with a non-illuminated milling reticle ($1,699.95).

All three of these are First Focal Plane scopes. If you can't tell from the box, the way you tell a FFP from a SFP (second focal plane) scope is what happens to the reticle when you zoom in and out. The reticle size remains unchanged as the image zooms in and out, you are looking at a SFP scope. If you see the reticle grow and shrink as you zoom in and out, you're looking at a FFP scope. FFP scopes tend to be more expensive, but they have an advantage over SFP scopes. The advantage is that, because the reticle grows and shrinks as the image grows and shrinks, the subtensions on the reticle can be used for ranging and bullet drop compensating at any magnification. With a SFP scope, the subtensions are only valid for ranging and bullet drop compensating at one magnification, which is usually (but not always) the value which is roughly midway between the low and high end magnifications. My 4.5-14X Leupold would indicate that the proper magnification for ranging would be at 9.25X (14-4.5 = 9.5; 9.5÷2=4.75; 4.5+4.75=9.25). However both the manual and the markings on the adjustment ring indicate that the proper magnification for ranging is 10X.......close enough for horseshoes and hand-grenades. The SFW scope is FFP, so none of that matters, and the other Leupold on the Ruger is a regular duplex and doesn't have ranging subtensions on the reticle, so it doesn't matter.

That's a lot of information, and it isn't focused, but maybe it will help you to narrow down what you're looking for and to make intelligent choices for both rifles.

[SQLGeek]

That was helpful for me, also. Thanks TAM!

[A-R]

With any optic (scopes, camera lenses, eye glasses) the manufacturing quality of the glass components themselves play a huge role. And making high quality optic glass is an expensive process. This is why the same 3-9x40 scope from Leupold or Nikon costs more than BSA and similar "cheap" scopes. Also build quality comes into play in the body of the scope - how airtight is the design (any amount of moisture insude the scope's interior will effectively ruin it), impact resistant etc

Selecting a scope on any kind of budget is a trade off between features and quality.

Personally I try to err on the side of quality without going overboard into overpriced prestige brands. Having years of great experience with the Nikon brand as a semi-pro photographer, I naturally gravitated to that brand. But Leupold and others are just as good quality from what I've seen. Burris and higher-end Bushnells are good too.

That said I know I personally will be more happy with the optical quality and clarity of basic fixed 6x40 Leupold or Nikon than the bells and whistles of a 4-12x50 BSA with illuminated retitled etc

Another key consideration is the overall size of the scope. A great inexpensive but quality brand is Millett. I had one of their 4-12x50 scopes and it was great optics and features and price. But it was so big and bulky it didn't fit well on my AR and made my bolt-action rifle feel unbalanced and unstable. So I got rid of it in favor of a smaller 2-10x42 Nikon

[philip964]

Well for a noob you know a lot more than I do about rifles. I am still confused on all those ammunition sizes etc. I do know a little about telescopes so I will provide some basics about telescopes, if any of the this fits with scopes all the better.

The the front objective lens gathers the light. The larger it is the more light it gathers. Pretty obvious so far. The larger the objective lens the higher the magnification can go before you hit a limit of about 50 x per inch of objective lens. 25mm = about an inch. If you exceed that limit you have empty magnification. The image is larger but you don't see any more detail. All the scopes people listed are lower than this limit, so they will give fine images. But the principal still governs the larger the front lens the better the image sharpness. A large front lens will also produce a brighter image, important if you need to see a bright image on a dark or shadowy condition.

Light that is bent by a lens does not bend all of the light to the same point. It focuses different wavelengths of light to different points along the focal axis. Here is where the quality comes in. The more expensive optics spend (or should spend) a lot of time with coatings and combinations of lens and lens glass to get all the light to focus at one point. If you see any rainbow coloring around the sharp edges of things you are looking at this would be a sign of an inexpensive lens. Images should be sharp with out any colors at the edges. Other things like baffling inside the scope reduce light scatter and produce a sharper image, with more contrast.

One thing someone told me about high fidelity sound equipment, yeah it has great specs, but how does it sound? would also fit with a scope. How does it see? All the brand names, specs and the like, don't really matter. How does it see with your eyes?

If the more expensive scope doesn't see better with your eyes then save the money.

[Trilogy]

I'm learning from this too. Thanks Liberty for asking the question.

[fickman]

In other words, a 6' tall man viewed at 20X from 1,000 yards away would look the same size to my eye as he would appear unmagnified from 50 yards away.

At 5X, a 6' tall man 300 yards away would look like an unmagnified 6' tall man just 60 yards away.

Remind me not to volunteer to "help" you sight in your rifles. . . this sounds dangerous!

[liberty2014]

I know a few things, but theres even more things i dont know. Im embarassed to ask this question but i will swallow my pride and ask anyway. I want to put a scope on a few guns. One will be for mid range up to 300 yards with an ar in
223/5.56 and the other will go on a savage 110 cfp tactical in 300 win mag that i will use for stuff 500 yards and up. I have no idea what to look for and what means what. I do like night force but if i had that kind of money i wouldve went to yale and not TAMU. What do the numbers mean? Isnt a high magnification all that matters? What does 4x10 mean? How is different from what 4-16x40 mean? Is leupold better than nikon and if so is like bwi vs kia better or ford vs kia better? Any and all input is appreciated. God bless and gig em

4x10 means a fixed 4 power with a 10mm objective lens.......which would be about the size of a pencil, and really weird for a lens.

4-16x40 means a variable power scope with low magnification of 4X and high magnification of 16X and a 40mm objective lens.

In other words, the numbers that come before the "X" indicate the power of magnification, or in other terms, the number of times that an image is magnified above 1X. The number that comes after the "X" is the diameter of the objective lens of the scope (the end furthest from your eye). There are other variables, but all other things being equal, the larger the objective lens, the more light will be transmitted to the eye, and the brighter the image will appear through the ocular lens—the end closest to your eye.

Examples:

I have a Leupold VX-III scope on a Remington 700 that is a 4.5-14X50mm optic. Magnification is variable from 4.5X to 14X and the objective lens is 50mm.

I have a SWFA SS scope on an AR10 that is 5-20X50mm. Magnification is variable from 5X to 20X and the objective lens is 50mm.

I have a Leupold VX-R Firedot scope on a Ruger Gunsite Scout that is 1.5-5X33mm. Magnification is from 1.5X to 5X and the objective lens is 33mm.

I have a fixed power Burris 536AR on an AR15. Magnification is fixed at 5X and the objective lens is 36mm.

All of these scopes have been selected for the application intended for the rifle. The Remington is a medium to long range hunting rifle, and the scope's magnification and light gathering capabilities were chosen with that application in mind.

The AR10 is a strictly long range rifle (as I have it set up), and the scope is chosen accordingly. To put this into perspective, 20X on an object 1,000 yards distant would make it look about the same size as it would be to the naked eye just 50 yards distant. In other words, a 6' tall man viewed at 20X from 1,000 yards away would look the same size to my eye as he would appear unmagnified from 50 yards away.

The 1.5-5X scope on the Gunsite Scout was chosen with quick sight acquisition and long eye-relief in mind for short range hunting, inside of 300 yards or so, where higher magnifications are less of an issue. At 5X, a 6' tall man 300 yards away would look like an unmagnified 6' tall man just 60 yards away.

The Burris optic on my AR15 fulfills the same role as a fixed power ACOG.

For the AR, probably your best bet is a variable power scope in a 1-4X by whatever. That will give you usable optics from CQB out to 300-400 yards. For your Savage, there are lots of choices, but I am personally partial the the SWFA SS scopes. They are made with HD glass. They have a very well designed and illuminated tactical milling reticle, and they are available in an array of magnifications. AND, they compare VERY favorably in price against products from other premium optic manufacturers like Nightforce or Leupold. My 5-20X50 was $1,499.95, and compared very favorably to an IOR Valdata 6-24x56 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope with illuminated milling reticle ($1,949.95) and a Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope with a non-illuminated milling reticle ($1,699.95).

All three of these are First Focal Plane scopes. If you can't tell from the box, the way you tell a FFP from a SFP (second focal plane) scope is what happens to the reticle when you zoom in and out. The reticle size remains unchanged as the image zooms in and out, you are looking at a SFP scope. If you see the reticle grow and shrink as you zoom in and out, you're looking at a FFP scope. FFP scopes tend to be more expensive, but they have an advantage over SFP scopes. The advantage is that, because the reticle grows and shrinks as the image grows and shrinks, the subtensions on the reticle can be used for ranging and bullet drop compensating at any magnification. With a SFP scope, the subtensions are only valid for ranging and bullet drop compensating at one magnification, which is usually (but not always) the value which is roughly midway between the low and high end magnifications. My 4.5-14X Leupold would indicate that the proper magnification for ranging would be at 9.25X (14-4.5 = 9.5; 9.5÷2=4.75; 4.5+4.75=9.25). However both the manual and the markings on the adjustment ring indicate that the proper magnification for ranging is 10X.......close enough for horseshoes and hand-grenades. The SFW scope is FFP, so none of that matters, and the other Leupold on the Ruger is a regular duplex and doesn't have ranging subtensions on the reticle, so it doesn't matter.

That's a lot of information, and it isn't focused, but maybe it will help you to narrow down what you're looking for and to make intelligent choices for both rifles.

thank you so much for that. is an eotech 3x magnifier paired with an eotech 516 worth it? 3 times doesnt like it would worth the $500 asking price to me,

[Kadelic]

Thank you to TAM. More than one lightbulb came on when reading that treatise.

[The Annoyed Man]

In other words, a 6' tall man viewed at 20X from 1,000 yards away would look the same size to my eye as he would appear unmagnified from 50 yards away.

At 5X, a 6' tall man 300 yards away would look like an unmagnified 6' tall man just 60 yards away.

Remind me not to volunteer to "help" you sight in your rifles. . . this sounds dangerous!

Nahhhh, as long as you're out past 1,000 yards, you're probably safe. Probably.

[android]

thank you so much for that. is an eotech 3x magnifier paired with an eotech 516 worth it? 3 times doesnt like it would worth the $500 asking price to me,

I like my EOTech magnifier. It will let you use your Holo sight more like a scope out to 150 yards or so. Maybe 200 yards if your vision is good.

Just flip it aside for close quarters.

It is $500 for a reason. It is designed to fill the view when placed directly behind the sight. There are cheaper 3x mags out there, but they will vignette. (dark corners and edges)

Also, Keep both eyes open when using a holo sight with or without the magnifier.

[The Annoyed Man]

thank you so much for that. is an eotech 3x magnifier paired with an eotech 516 worth it? 3 times doesnt like it would worth the $500 asking price to me,

You're welcome. I have an EOTech 3x magnifier with a 517 A65 and it's a good combination. The only reason I took mine off my AR and gave it to my wife is because my eyes are weak enough from age now that 3x just isn't enough juice for me at longer ranges anymore. That's why I mounted the 5x Burris 536 mentioned above on my carbine. But it was an excellent combination for a long time. My advice if you buy the magnifier is to get it with the A.R.M.S. flip-to-side mount.

[MoJo]

The above information on scope numbers is spot on.

I have an AR set up with a Millett 1-4 X24 DMS scope w/illuminated Reticle, and a Rem 700 in .30/'06 with a Primary Arms 4-16X44 Illuminated Mil Dot Scope for reach out shooting. Neither of the scopes are high priced but, both are a great value considering features vs quality vs price.

Do your homework and don't be trapped in with the "Big Name" or highest price there are some diamonds in the rough if you are willing to look for them.