The Annoyed Man wrote:The death penalty, IF the accused is guilty, serves justice; and that is all the justification it needs.
![I Agree :iagree:](./images/smilies/iagree.gif)
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
The Annoyed Man wrote:The death penalty, IF the accused is guilty, serves justice; and that is all the justification it needs.
Trying to argue that overall averages for all death penalty states v. all non-death penalty states is a smoke screen. Many of the non-death penalty states are tiny, but they have the same impact on the overall percentage. Look at the individual states to get a realistic comparison. Those stats disprove the argument that death penalty states have lower murder rates. Some do, some don't and the population size is significant. As I noted, that site is an anti-death penalty website and they are playing fast and loose with the facts. They deliberately distorted the data by grouping the states regardless of population.koolaid wrote:I'm not sure where you are getting this from, because looking at the stats on that page:Charles L. Cotton wrote: Here's a link to a site I know nothing about, other than it claims to take the data from FBI reports. It appears to be an anti-death penalty site. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder- ... -and-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If the numbers are correct, it disproves the argument that non-death penalty states have a lower overall murder rate. Many states with very low murder rates per 100,000 are also very small states and this is significant. You can't compare tiny states to Texas, California, New York and other much larger states.
For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1
For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9
For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8
For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3
You can click around that site and find other stats comparing neighboring states with different policies, and detailed breakdowns of the rates.
Here is where we differ, I guess. I'm not opposed to executing murderers, rapists, and various other criminals. But the fact of it is that innocent people are convicted of crimes they didn't commit all the time. Our justice system isn't perfect, and it never can be. Having the state kill someone doesn't leave any room for mistakes, and having the state murder an innocent person is a (in my opinion) a far more heinous crime than letting a murderer rot in prison.Charles L. Cotton wrote: For purposes of this discussion, note that California has the death penalty, but it isn't used. The 2011 murder rate was 4.8 and that's the lowest in many years. It was 9.1 in 1996. Compare that to Texas with a 4.4 murder rate.
I'm not arguing that the death penalty is a deterrent to crime in the U.S.; I simply don't know, nor do I care. If someone is philosophically against executing murderers then that's fine. That's their belief and their opinion and we disagree. I'm not going to try to change their mind and they are wasting their time trying to change mine. I believe that, in most cases, murderers deserve to die.
For those who argue the murder rate in non-death penalty states is lower than in death penalty states, the stats seem to disprove this argument. Plus, many states have a death penalty statute, but is rarely if every used. That certainly is no deterrent, but again, I don't care.
Chas.
The other point to consider is the fact that apparently a dozen people on death row were exonerated and released looks to me like the system has substantial safeguards built into it and is working exactly as it should.Charles L. Cotton wrote:I agree that some very few innocent people are convicted, but it doesn't happen "all the time" as you contend. I'm still waiting to see the list of the dozen Texas death row inmates who were wrongfully convicted. When wrongful convictions do happen, it's usually because the prosecutor, COP, witness, or some combination thereof, lied, falsified evidence or testimony, or hid evidence proving the defendant was innocent. When this happens, I think everyone involved should suffer the maximum penalty the defendant faced, including execution. Execute a few prosecutors who hid evidence of innocence and convictions of innocent people will indeed be rare.
koolaid wrote:
Comparing against other countries doesn't really tell you much because of the other factors involved.
For instance, Sweden has no death penalty and a murder rate of 1 per 100k.
Under Section 316 of the Criminal Procedure Code:
"When any person is sentenced to death, the sentence shall direct that he shall be hanged by the neck till he is dead but shall not state the place where nor the time when the sentence is to be carried out."
Hangings always take place at dawn on Friday and are by the long drop method developed in the United Kingdom by William Marwood. The executioner refers to the Official Table of Drops. The government have said that they:
"…had previously studied the different methods of execution and found no reason to change from the current method used, that is, by hanging."
Neither persons under the age of 18 at the time of their offence nor pregnant women can be sentenced to death.
Capital cases are heard by a single judge in the High Court of Singapore. After conviction and sentencing, the sentenced has one appeal to the Court of Appeal of Singapore. If the appeal fails, the final recourse rests with the President of Singapore, who has the power to grant clemency on the advice of the Cabinet. The exact number of successful appeals is unknown. Poh Kay Keong had his conviction overturned after the Court found his statement to a Central Narcotics Bureau officer was made under duress. Successful clemency applications are thought to be even rarer. Since 1965, the President's clemency has been granted six times. The last clemency was in May 1998 when Mathavakannan Kalimuthu received pardon from President Ong Teng Cheong with the sentence commuted to life imprisonment.
The condemned are given notice at least four days before execution. In the case of foreigners who have been sentenced to death, their families and diplomatic missions/embassies are given one to two weeks' notice.
Amnesty International reports that death row inmates are housed in cells of roughly 3 sqm (32 sq ft). Walls make up three sides, while the fourth is vertical bars. They are equipped with a toilet, sleeping mat and a bucket for washing. Exercise is permitted twice a day for half an hour at a time. Four days before the execution, the condemned is allowed to watch television or listen to the radio. Special meals of their choice are also cooked, if within the prison budget. Visitation rights are increased from one 20 minute visit per week to a maximum of four hours each day,[8] though no physical contact is allowed with any visitors.
Beiruty wrote:It is nice to compare the murder rate between KSA and USA. Both have death penalty, however, the former execute in public by sword (even kids and teens can watch said execution), the later behind dark curtains where no one see the execution but a handful of "witnesses". Why compare, cause Antis would claim that the execution has no deterrence for murder. Patently false.
Check my post on page 1 for a list Charles.Charles L. Cotton wrote:
I agree that some very few innocent people are convicted, but it doesn't happen "all the time" as you contend. I'm still waiting to see the list of the dozen Texas death row inmates who were wrongfully convicted. When wrongful convictions do happen, it's usually because the prosecutor, COP, witness, or some combination thereof, lied, falsified evidence or testimony, or hid evidence proving the defendant was innocent. When this happens, I think everyone involved should suffer the maximum penalty the defendant faced, including execution. Execute a few prosecutors who hid evidence of innocence and convictions of innocent people will indeed be rare.
Chas.
koolaid wrote:I have always found it odd that the people who express the most distrust in the government and politics of the various courts are also the most adamant supporters of the death penalty.
There have been at least 12 people in Texas alone who sat on death row for years only to be exonerated.
But, it is what it is, I suppose.
I can't believe I'm spending this much time on this issue! I guess the attorney in me can't let it go.C-dub wrote:Check my post on page 1 for a list Charles.Charles L. Cotton wrote:
I agree that some very few innocent people are convicted, but it doesn't happen "all the time" as you contend. I'm still waiting to see the list of the dozen Texas death row inmates who were wrongfully convicted. When wrongful convictions do happen, it's usually because the prosecutor, COP, witness, or some combination thereof, lied, falsified evidence or testimony, or hid evidence proving the defendant was innocent. When this happens, I think everyone involved should suffer the maximum penalty the defendant faced, including execution. Execute a few prosecutors who hid evidence of innocence and convictions of innocent people will indeed be rare.
Chas.
Anti-Death Penalty Website wrote:Vernon McManus Texas Conviction: 1977, Charges Dismissed: 1987
After a new trial was ordered, the prosecution dropped the charges when a key prosecution witness refused to testify. [Not shown to be innocent, the witness refused to testify.]
Randall Dale Adams Texas Conviction: 1977, Charges Dismissed: 1989
Adams was convicted of killing a Dallas Police officer and sentenced to death. After the murder David Harris was arrested for the murder when it was learned that he was bragging about it. Harris, however, claimed that Adams was the killer. Adams trial lawyer was a real estate attorney and the key government witnesses against Adams were Harris and other witnesses who were never subject to cross examination because they disappeared the next day. On appeal, Adams was ordered to be released pending a new trial by the Texas Court of Appeals. [Not shown to be innocent, key witnesses were missing and the case couldn't be retried without witnesses.]
Clarence Brandley Texas Conviction: 1981, Charges Dismissed: 1990
Brandley was awarded a new trial when evidence showed prosecutorial suppression of exculpatory evidence and perjury by prosecution witnesses. An investigation by the Department of Justice and the FBI uncovered more misconduct, and in 1989 a new trial was granted. Prior to the new trial, all of the charges against Brandley were dropped. [I'm very familiar with this case and I have no doubt he was innocent. Several "state employees" should be in prison. He was not executed and the appellate system worked.]
John C. Skelton Texas Conviction: 1983, Acquitted: 1990
Despite several witnesses who testified that he was 800 miles from the scene of the murder [juries have the job of judging the credibility of all witnesses[, Skelton was convicted and sentenced to death for killing a man by exploding dynamite in his pickup truck. The evidence against him was purely circumstantial [this is often the case as direct evidence is not required to convict in any state or the federal system]and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals found that it was insufficient to support a guilty verdict. The Court reversed the conviction and entered a directed verdict of acquittal. [Again, the system worked.]
Federico M. Macias Texas Conviction: 1984, Charges Dismissed: 1993
Macias was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of a man during a burglary. Macias was implicated by a co-worker, who in exchange for his testimony was not prosecuted for the murders, and from jail-house informants. Post-conviction investigation by pro bono attorneys discovered substantial evidence of inadequate counsel. A federal district court ordered a new hearing finding that "[t]he errors that occurred in this case are inherent in a system which pays attorneys such a meager amount." Macias's conviction was overturned and a grand jury refused to reindict because of lack of evidence. [Not shown to be innocent. Also, there were witnesses against him and the federal court overturned the case allegedly because of low-paid attorney. Really?]
Muneer Deeb Texas Conviction: 1985, Acquitted: 1993
Deeb was originally sentenced to death for allegedly contracting with three hitmen to kill his ex-girlfriend. The hitmen were also convicted and one was sentenced to death. Deeb consistently claimed no involvement in the crime. Deeb's conviction was overturned by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in 1991 because improper evidence had been admitted at his first trial. With an experienced defense attorney, Deeb was retried and acquitted in 1993. [No information about what "improper evidence was admitted in the trial. Testimony by accomplices is routinely used. Later acquittal doesn't prove innocence; it proves his 2nd attorney did a better job changing the jury's perception.]
Ricardo Aldape Guerra Texas Conviction: 1982, Charges Dismissed: 1997
Guerra was sentenced to death for the murder of a police officer in Houston. Federal District Judge Kenneth Hoyt ruled on Nov. 15, 1994 that Guerra should either be retried in 30 days or released, stating that the actions of the police and prosecutors in this case were "outrageous," "intentional" and "done in bad faith." He further said that their misconduct "was designed and calculated to obtain . . . another 'notch in their guns.'" (Guerra v. Collins, 916 F. Supp. 620 (S.D. Texas, 1995)). Judge Hoyt's ruling was unanimously upheld by the U.S. Court of Appeals. (Guerra v. Johnson, 90 F.3d 1075 (5th Cir. Tex. 1996)). Although Guerra was granted a new trial, Houston District Attorney Johnny Holmes dropped charges on April 16, 1997 instead. [A decision from Hoyt is . . . well it's a decision from Hoyt. If misconduct as he described existed, then everyone involved should be in prision now.]
Michael Blair Texas Conviction: 1994, Charges Dismissed: 2008
Michael Blair was sentenced to death for the 1993 murder of 7-year old Ashley Estell. In May 2008, following a re-investigation of the case by the Collin County prosecutor's office, District Attorney John Roach announced that in light of the results of advanced DNA testing and the absence of any other evidence linking him to the crime, Mr. Blair's conviction could no longer be upheld. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the decision of the Collin County trial court that:
"The post conviction DNA results and the evidence discovered in the State's new investigation have substantially eroded the State's trial case against [applicant]. This new evidence in light of the remaining inculpatory evidence in the record, has established by clear and convincing evidence that no reasonable juror would have convicted [applicant] in light of newly discovered evidence." [Apparently the system worked, although it appears that the prosecutor was guilty of misconduct. If so, he should be in prison.]
Michael Toney, Texas Conviction: 1999, Charges Dismissed: 2009
Toney was released from jail on September 2, 2009 after the state dropped all charges against him for a 1985 bombing that killed three people. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals overturned Toney’s conviction on December 17, 2008 because the prosecution had suppressed evidence relating to the credibility of its only two witnesses. (Ex parte Toney, AP-76,056 (Tex. Crim. App. December 17, 2008)). The Tarrant County District Attorney’s Office subsequently withdrew from the case based on the misconduct findings. In September 2009, the Attorney General's Office, which had been specially appointed to the case in the wake of Tarrant County’s withdrawal, dismissed the indictment against Toney. He had consistently maintained his innocence. The case had gone unsolved for 14 years until a jail inmate told authorities that Toney had confessed to the crime. The inmate later recanted his story, saying he had hoped to win early release. The state said it is continuing its investigation into the murders. Toney was killed in an automobile accident one month after his release. The state said it is continuing its investigation into the murders. [The defendant was already in prison for something and the state had a witness who said he confessed. The witness/convict later recanted and he was released. Again, he was not proven innocent.]
Robert Springsteen, Texas conviction: 2001, Charges dismissed: 2009
On October 28, 2009, Travis County, Texas, prosecutors moved to dismiss all charges against Michael Scott and Robert Springsteen, who had been convicted of the murder of four teens in an Austin yogurt shop in 1991. (Springsteen was convicted in 2001; Scott in 2002.) Springsteen had been sentenced to death and Scott was sentenced to life in prison. The convictions of both men were overturned by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals because they had not been adequately allowed to cross examine each other. (See Springsteen v. Texas, No. AP-74,223 (May 24, 2006)). State District Judge Mike Lynch had released the defendants on bond in June, pending a possible retrial by the state. However, sophisticated DNA analysis of evidence from the crime scene did not match either defendant and the prosecution announced it was not prepared to go to trial. The judge accepted the state's motion to dismiss all charges. Prosecutors are still trying to match the DNA from crime with a new defendant. [I remember this case well. This involved the murder of 4 kids and the lack of DNA from the defendants is meaningless. One wouldn't expect to find DNA at the scene; in rape, no bleeding from the defendants, etc. Also, one or more of the defendants confessed to the murder, but there was concern about how the confession was obtained. Again, either the system worked, or guilty men are walking free.]
Anthony Graves, Texas conviction: 1994, Charges dismissed: 2010
Anthony Graves (pictured) was released from a Texas prison on October 27 after Washington-Burleson County District Attorney Bill Parham filed a motion to dismiss all charges that had resulted in Graves being sent to death row 16 years ago. Graves was convicted in 1994 of assisting Robert Carter in multiple murders in 1992. There was no physical evidence linking Graves to the crime, and his conviction relied primarily on Carter’s testimony that Graves was his accomplice. Two weeks before Carter was scheduled to be executed in 2000, he provided a statement saying he lied about Graves’s involvement in the crime. He repeated that statement minutes before his execution. In 2006, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit overturned Graves’s conviction and ordered a new trial after finding that prosecutors elicited false statements and withheld testimony that could have influenced the jurors. [No evidence, much less proof, of innocence. The accomplice stated he was involved, then later recanted a mere two weeks before the accomplice was executed. That case should never have been overturned.]
Boy could I vote for that. Not having been directly a victim, except in one unusual circumstance which was resolved in my favor, but my brother was set up and plead guilty to felony conspiracy to distribute, and I would love to see the cops, prosecutor and JUDGE serve the same time he did, and have a felony conviction for the rest of their lives.Charles L. Cotton wrote:When wrongful convictions do happen, it's usually because the prosecutor, COP, witness, or some combination thereof, lied, falsified evidence or testimony, or hid evidence proving the defendant was innocent. When this happens, I think everyone involved should suffer the maximum penalty the defendant faced, including execution. Execute a few prosecutors who hid evidence of innocence and convictions of innocent people will indeed be rare.
Chas.
Convicted persons being set free are proof the system works. They are not proof that innocent people are executed. That is a logical fallacy known as false dichotomy. It is equally true that because convicted people have been released that innocent people may have been convicted and that because convicted people are released no innocent person has ever been executed. The premise does not lead to the conclusion.C-dub wrote:Sorry about that Charles. I had never been to that site before and didn't know of it's reputation. I only did a quick search and scanned for the names after you expressed doubt about there being a dozen wrongfully convicted folks on death row here in Texas. I would have bet money that there were easily a dozen since I seem to recall there being at least 4 having been set free in the last few years.