Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

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Jumping Frog
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Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#1

Post by Jumping Frog »

This started off last November with a news story of a convenient store cashier who had two armed robbers come into the store, threaten the cashier with a gun, and start emptying the cash drawer.

The cashier drew and shot one of the robbers. The other robber while fleeing was throwing shots at the clerk and also a customer who did not realize the store was being robbed.

Seems like self defense, except the the grand jury indicted the cashier for voluntary manslaughter.

Original news story: http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... bbery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What raised eyebrows at the news story was the comment:
John Weglian, chief of the special units division of the prosecutor’s office, said that the issue the grand jury had to consider was whether self defense applied to Mr. Abu-Karsh’s actions throughout the entire incident.

“The issue was that although [Mr. Abu-Karsh’s] conduct was initially justified, the grand jury concluded that his subsequent conduct was not in self defense,” he said.

Mr. Weglian declined to comment on the facts of the case or say what conduct was considered not to be self defense.
:headscratch :headscratch :headscratch

So three months later there was a follow-up news story: http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/1700 ... ing-robber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It shed a little more light on the cashier's conduct:
Bandar Abu-Karsh fatally shot an armed robber Nov. 21 after two men tried to rob him at the Express Carryout on Page Street.

The second suspect, Joe Hunter, ran, but Abu-Karsh ran after him, shooting and missing. Hunter was eventually arrested.

Prosecutors said Abu-Karsh then went back inside and fired more shots at the first suspect, Lamar Allen, 25, hitting him in the head, chest and extremities, eventually killing him.

Toledo Defense Attorney Jerry Phillips said it is not the number of bullets fired, but what order they came in, that most likely matters the most.

The Grand Jury may have determined that the clerk disabled the suspect the first time, but went beyond self-defense with the second round of shots.
Kind of reminds me of the pharmacy in Oklahoma City case (Jim Ersland), where he continued to shoot the thug after he was already down.

Fast forward nine months later for a news story during the trial that includes video from the store: http://www.13abc.com/story/19275425/jur ... r-33-times" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... rmath.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Turns out, the BG had the cashier get on his knees for two minutes. The BG laid his Tec-9 down to empty the cash drawer, so the clerk used his gun to shoot the BG in the head. The other robber fled while shooting.

The clerk went and locked the front door, then came back and shot the BG with his own gun 33 times. :shock:

I am happy to say that the jury acquitted him of all charges. http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=788849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone needs to give him an award for taking out the trash.

Oh, by the way, here is a quick criminal record for the two perps:

Joe Hunter
2-25-2005 Possession of Cocaine
2-25-2005 Trafficking in Cocaine
5-20-2005 Assault F4
2-10-2009 Possession of Cocaine
2-10-2009 Trafficking in Cocaine
2-10-2009 Trafficking in Marijuana
2-10-2009 Aggravated Possession of Drugs
2-10-2009 Aggravated Trafficking in Drugs

Lamar Allen
4-2-2009 Felonious Assault
5-12-2009 Aggravated Assault
9-15-2009 Possession of Cocaine
9-15-2009 Trafficking in Cocaine
9-15-2009 Trafficking in Counterfeit Controlled Substances
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C-dub
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#2

Post by C-dub »

Yeah,the BG was bad, but after watching that video I don't know how that clerk didn't get convicted. This is very much like the OKC pharmacy thing. He came back in side and stood over the guy shooting him multiple times. This guy put even more rounds into the defenseless BG than the pharmacist did.
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ClarkLZeuss
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#3

Post by ClarkLZeuss »

C-dub wrote:Yeah,the BG was bad, but after watching that video I don't know how that clerk didn't get convicted. This is very much like the OKC pharmacy thing. He came back in side and stood over the guy shooting him multiple times. This guy put even more rounds into the defenseless BG than the pharmacist did.
:iagree:
He had to have reloaded at least once to pull that off, unless I'm missing something about the gun.
Truth be told, though, I have no idea what genuine fear would convince me is "reasonable." My theory, though, is that people who never mentally train for deadly force encounters are more prone to overreact. I'm not sure of how this clerk prepared himself (or didn't), it's more of a general theory I have.
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#4

Post by DocV »

ClarkLZeuss wrote:
C-dub wrote:Yeah,the BG was bad, but after watching that video I don't know how that clerk didn't get convicted. This is very much like the OKC pharmacy thing. He came back in side and stood over the guy shooting him multiple times. This guy put even more rounds into the defenseless BG than the pharmacist did.
:iagree:
He had to have reloaded at least once to pull that off, unless I'm missing something about the gun.
Truth be told, though, I have no idea what genuine fear would convince me is "reasonable." My theory, though, is that people who never mentally train for deadly force encounters are more prone to overreact. I'm not sure of how this clerk prepared himself (or didn't), it's more of a general theory I have.
If I recall correctly, the Tec-9 has both 30 and 32 round magazines available.

JeepGuy79
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#5

Post by JeepGuy79 »

am I the only one that wants to see the CCTV recording?
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Topbuilder
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#6

Post by Topbuilder »

Does seem a little excessive...
At that range, 10-15 shots to the head should have done the job. But, he was only using a 9mm...
I'm glad the GG got off. I suspect that will not be the end of his problems.
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#7

Post by i8godzilla »

Topbuilder wrote:Does seem a little excessive...
At that range, 10-15 shots to the head should have done the job. But, he was only using a 9mm...
I'm glad the GG got off. I suspect that will not be the end of his problems.

Although acquitted on the charges in Lucas County and released by Judge Gary Cook, Mr. Abu-Karsh was once again taken into custody after the verdict for an immigration issue.

Mr. Abu-Karsh , a citizen of Jordan who moved to Toledo in 2007, is in the custody of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... aying.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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recaffeination

Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#8

Post by recaffeination »

Maybe we should put the prosecutors wife and daghter in a room with the "innocent" armed robbers and see if that changes his mind about self defense. :roll:
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#9

Post by Jumping Frog »

As far as I am concerned, when you pull a gun on someone to rob them you give up your right to not get shot!
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Topbuilder
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#10

Post by Topbuilder »

"Mr. Abu-Karsh , a citizen of Jordan who moved to Toledo in 2007, is in the custody of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement."

Todays version of "common sense' will dictate this man who was aquitted, will have to deal with imigration while the illegal alien who commits a crime will not, and later commit another crime. :banghead:
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#11

Post by fickman »

This one is slightly different from the Oklahoman pharmacist (who I wish had not been convicted. . . as the Marines have been known to say, "If he's worth shooting once, he's worth shooting twice).

The clerk in this scenario did not have his own gun. We can't assume (unless one of the articles I didn't read mentioned it) that he has EVER held a gun before. He was a complete novice.

My first CHL instructor was a chief of police with decades of LEO experience. We were having a discussion about tactics and he was advocating a "fire twice, reassess the threat" approach. His point was that - even if we're in the "right" - we're going to have to account for every action we took, including every bullet that went though the pipe. He said that many untrained people are likely to keep shooting until the gun stops going BOOM. . . joking that when you reload to pump a second magazine of ammo through an already stopped BG, that's when you'll really have a hard time explaining yourself to a jury.

In this case, the BG is unfortunate that he brought so much ammo. If he'd had a J-frame he might have escaped with only five bullet holes.

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tornado
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#12

Post by tornado »

A DPS friend of mine has told me that after the BG is down, I should put two more rounds in his head. While that would be making sure the threat is stopped, it seems we're rolling the dice with juries.

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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#13

Post by smoothoperator »

The message I take from this is never leave an enemy alive if you have to leave them behind. Maybe that's not the message the grand jury wanted to send but that's the message I received loud and clear.
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#14

Post by C-dub »

tornado wrote:A DPS friend of mine has told me that after the BG is down, I should put two more rounds in his head. While that would be making sure the threat is stopped, it seems we're rolling the dice with juries.
Many of them also used to tell people that if you shoot someone as they're running out your door be sure to either drag them back inside or throw your television on the ground next to them. Neither of those options was ever good advice.

Had I been on that jury and seen that video, without any other really compelling evidence to the contrary, I would have found that guy guilty. I really am shocked he was acquitted.
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Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

#15

Post by Jumping Frog »

There is a guy on a different forum who recounted his experience the first time he was in combat as this:
charliej47 wrote:I can remember being in a firefight and I fired off my entire basic load during the fight and do not even remember reloading. I can remember the Sargent yelling "they are on the wire" and then I remember him asking me if I needed more ammo. All that happened in between is a blur. :shock:
So I can easily see where someone doesn't really know what they are doing until the gun stops going "BANG".

I'd vote to acquit in self defense cases in most circumstances, including this one.
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