VA: Man killed with own gun

[ELB]

He had a concealed carry license, but it seems he either was openly carrying or not careful with his concealment:

... According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, [Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy] Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon

The juvenile who took his gun later killed someone else, presumably with the same gun.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news ... r-1510369/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Keith B]

Well, there's one case of open carry that sure wasn't a deterrent and turned bad due to the gun being in plain sight. Not nessicarily against open carry, but think it will invite this type of event if the crooks get the opportunity.

[mamabearCali]

I am so sorry...Man! Living in VA, if you open carry you have got to have some sort of retention to prevent this very thing from happening.

[Jumping Frog]

Condition White with a crappy holster is a bad combination.

[speedsix]

...stupid with a gun is worse than just plain stupid...he sounds like he hadn't made up his mind that he'd USE it...and someone else HAD...

[longtooth]

Yep.

[mamabearCali]

...stupid with a gun is worse than just plain stupid...he sounds like he hadn't made up his mind that he'd USE it...and someone else HAD...

If you are going to carry a gun (especially openly!) you have to get that settled in your head. That said I am really sorry that he died, and even sorrier that his gun was used to kill others. I live about 10 miles from where he was killed. When I am not due any day now I carry concealed deeply--part of it for this very reason--the other part is that other ballet and flag football moms get bent out of shape if they see a gun--so it is better for me to just avoid the whole situation. Again just such a tragic confluence of screw ups that led to the worst possible outcome.

[Keith B]

...stupid with a gun is worse than just plain stupid...he sounds like he hadn't made up his mind that he'd USE it...and someone else HAD...

If you are going to carry a gun (especially openly!) you have to get that settled in your head. That said I am really sorry that he died, and even sorrier that his gun was used to kill others. I live about 10 miles from where he was killed. When I am not due any day now I carry concealed deeply--part of it for this very reason--the other part is that other ballet and flag football moms get bent out of shape if they see a gun--so it is better for me to just avoid the whole situation. Again just such a tragic confluence of screw ups that led to the worst possible outcome.

This is the whole issue with Open Carry. While I am not against it in in some cases (rural areas or when out in open country, etc.) those that think they will be able to freely walk around a Metro area with a gun strapped to their hip and wander into Walmart, the grocery store, or to their kid's soccer games without someone being alarmed or disturbed by it are incorrect.

I grew up in a state that had open carry and I readily practiced it out in the rural areas when target practicing, etc. But, even in the small town I lived in and being a LEO, we VERY rarely carried openly unless in uniform or with your badge displayed. It was better to be in your jeans a t-shirt with no one seeing a gun on you. Besides being a target for someone to try and take it away, if someone didn't know you were a LEO and were unfamiliar with the carry laws, they were sure to contact store personnel about it. I responded to two different open carry 'Man with a gun' calls when I was a LEO. One was gone before I arrived, but the other I had to convince to take his pistol back to the car as the store didn't want him wearing it in there. And this was back in the late 70's/early 80's when guns were not so looked on as evil, especially in an area where everyone hunted.

Bottom line, my preference is like yours and to keep it out of sight and only known to me. The concealed carry methods I use are a lot better for retention and surprise and doesn't make me a potential target for someone who wants to try and take my gun away, capable or not.

[speedsix]

...I agree with most of that, too...my state was OC...you seldom saw it done in town...we had one smart-aleck lawyer who'd strap on a coupla Colts at lunch and walk Texas Street...downtown business district...just because he could...we finally assigned two walking cops to walk 6 paces behind him to keep the switchboard from lighting up...he was a jerk...out in the country, it was more commonplace...
...gun stores, pawn shops...some retail stores...not a bad thing for miscreants to see the management carrying...it is a deterrant...most of the time in Texas, I'd not carry openly, even in the country...like you, I'd want the surprise to be in my favor...

[mamabearCali]

It is becoming more and more common here in VA, even in the burbs. I see it perhaps once a month or so (at lowes/grocery store/park/etc). Most of the time no one notices what you are wearing anyway--people are too busy with their own lives to worry about what is on a person's hip. I notice because I am trying to work on becoming more situationally aware. But for heavens sakes if you are going to open carry--especially in the city of Richmond--- RETENTION!!! Now when I head out to the counties I see it alot more often, and I imagine there would be alot less risk to having a less hardened retention system than in the city of Richmond (well except that you might lose your $500+ weapon if you tripped over a root out on the back 40) . I am glad I live in an OC state, but there is a reason I went through the trouble of getting my CHL. It makes life simpler.

[RoyGBiv]

...stupid with a gun is worse than just plain stupid...he sounds like he hadn't made up his mind that he'd USE it...and someone else HAD...

If you are going to carry a gun (especially openly!) you have to get that settled in your head. That said I am really sorry that he died, and even sorrier that his gun was used to kill others. I live about 10 miles from where he was killed. When I am not due any day now I carry concealed deeply--part of it for this very reason--the other part is that other ballet and flag football moms get bent out of shape if they see a gun--so it is better for me to just avoid the whole situation. Again just such a tragic confluence of screw ups that led to the worst possible outcome.

Whoa.! That's a lot of assuming... Unless there's more facts in evidence than was presented in that linked article, I don't see how any judgment can be made about the victim's holster, or his behavior during this event...

The victim fought to keep the weapon, then gave chase after the weapon was stolen, before the BG shot him. What did I miss that would lead to any conclusions about gear or mindset of the victim? I could easily grab a weapon from your snap-top holster if you weren't paying attention... A "Condition White" mindset seems to be the only thing we can defensibly infer about the victim from the original article.

From the OP's link...

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store.

[speedsix]

...when a person chooses to carry openly, he/she must be willing to accept the heightened responsibility for retaining/controlling the weapon...much more likely to have it taken from you than if the perp doesn't see it in the first place...and whether you satisfy that responsibility by a retention holster(not just a snapped strap) or awareness/alertness or both, this person did neither...hence the stupid...I may be wrong as to his willingness to use it...but, given his negligence in the other two points, I don't think he took the gravity of carrying an exposed weapon seriously...to say the least...and I have a recipe for crow should further facts prove me wrong...

[mamabearCali]

Whoa.! That's a lot of assuming... Unless there's more facts in evidence than was presented in that linked article, I don't see how any judgment can be made about the victim's holster, or his behavior during this event...

The victim fought to keep the weapon, then gave chase after the weapon was stolen, before the BG shot him. What did I miss that would lead to any conclusions about gear or mindset of the victim? I could easily grab a weapon from your snap-top holster if you weren't paying attention... A "Condition White" mindset seems to be the only thing we can defensibly infer about the victim from the original article.

Well you missed a bit of what I said. I don't open carry--so there will be no grabbing from any holster of mine. If you get close enough to get at my holster (I carry thigh holster under a skirt/flash-bang--look it up!) then expect to find a pocket knife sticking out of you and a face full of pepper spray, because if you are that close of contact then you are WAY too close and personal and I am going to assume you mean more than a brush up against me. Condition white when OC-ing is a screw up, and one that led to a series of horrible events.

From the OP's link...

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store.

Yeah--unless you have a BUG, or at minimum pepper spray chasing an armed suspect around the store is a screw up too. I am not trying to be cold hearted. I am most sorry that anyone died. It is terrible and the one who is the most to blame is the perp. But you can be 100% right and still be dead. As a person who lives in a OC state (and 10 miles from the crime) I would just beg anyone who wishes to open carry to be as careful and as wise as they can be.

[ELB]

It is not absolutely clear to me from the story that Tyler was OC'ing, or if somehow the teen noticed a concealed handgun under a cover garment. I think it was an OC, situation but not sure, and googling hasn't helped verify it for me.

In any case, I am not terribly prone to condemning the guy for chasing down the teen -- if you lose control of your gun, especially if you are OCing, I think you bear a burden to do your darndest to make sure it is not used against someone else. RIP Mr. Tyler.

[Bullwhip]

Well, there's one case of open carry that sure wasn't a deterrent and turned bad due to the gun being in plain sight.

Yep there's one.

Got any others? Open carry legal in almost ever other state, there's gotta be more than one, right?