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Remember how we are always told by those smarter-than-us anti-gun types that the robber will just take your gun away and shoot you? It seems like that can happen - to robbers in Pennsylvania:

Police said the unidentified woman wrestled the gun away from Heath and shot him.

Full story here:
http://www.wpxi.com/news/26086086/detai ... _cntnt_rss

I have seen several similar stories in the past. While I am sure it happens, I don't remember seeing many if any where the criminal used the citizen"s gun on them. Do remember seeing several where guns were taken from LEOs and used to kill them.

stroo wrote:Do remember seeing several where guns were taken from LEOs and used to kill them.

I wonder how this happens. Is it a perp going for the gun "preemptively"? Is he trying to get "the drop" on the LEO? Or is it the result of a struggle?

Not to make it the point of this discussion (please do not derail the thread!), but I wonder how that also compares to OC vs. CC. You KNOW a cop has a gun - you can see it right there, where the concealed carrier is harder to identify.

I know, I know...retention holster, etc., but a perp shouldn't know a concealed carrier has a gun until he's looking down the muzzle and the trigger is being pressed. That may make it harder for him to wrestle it away. Don't know the final facts of this case yet, but it shows some real guts by the young lady.

When Clayton Cramer was still collecting new stories of citizen self-defense with a gun, he ran an analysis on about 4000 stories, and found numerous cases in which one person's gun was taken away and used against him. Interesting thing was that in every case that person was the bad guy...

In the case of both cops and bad guys, there is the incentive to not shoot the person they are after. That puts both of them in a bad position sometimes.

For cops, I imagine that the cops either tried to draw a gun with the bad guy too close, were disabled physically before the gun was stolen, or weren't wearing a good retention holster. I imagine that cops carrying concealed would be in a bad position. If someone knew they were a cop, they might go after a gun that is less secure.

This is real story:
I had a dream, not sure if you can call it a nightmare. It is about the same topic. I was open carrying like I do at the range for competitive shooting and someone jumped at me and wanted to grab my pistol. In my dream the outcome that I either I will be shot and killed with my gun or I will have and keep control of my gun and shoot and kill said someone who jumped at my gun. No other alternative.

I guess this scenario is very likely if you do Open Carry and one has to be prepared and live with the consequences.

UpTheIrons wrote:

stroo wrote:Do remember seeing several where guns were taken from LEOs and used to kill them.

I wonder how this happens. Is it a perp going for the gun "preemptively"? Is he trying to get "the drop" on the LEO? Or is it the result of a struggle?

Not to make it the point of this discussion (please do not derail the thread!), but I wonder how that also compares to OC vs. CC. You KNOW a cop has a gun - you can see it right there, where the concealed carrier is harder to identify.

I know, I know...retention holster, etc., but a perp shouldn't know a concealed carrier has a gun until he's looking down the muzzle and the trigger is being pressed. That may make it harder for him to wrestle it away. Don't know the final facts of this case yet, but it shows some real guts by the young lady.

The vast majority of cases I have reviewed are the result of a struggle and / or an assault.

Most uniformed LEO's these days wear Level II or Level III retention holsters which make it pretty difficult (though not impossible) to snatch the gun, and the current defensive tactics training in handgun retention is much better than it was years ago.

Back in the 70's we were told that up to 20% of officers killed by felons were killed with their own guns due largely to awareness, training, and equipment issues. This has changed markedly over the years for the better. In 1973, there were 134 officers killed during felonies in the U.S. Last year, the total was 48, and only two of these were killed with their own weapons.

Forty seven officers died from accidental causes last year, and the vast majority of these (34) were vehicle related incidents.

Details on incidents where officers were killed or assaulted can be found in the annual FBI report of this data. The 2009 report is located here.

Cops come into contact with BG's every day. They have to put their hands on them, wrastle them, arrest them. I think its a false comparison to OC/CC. Open carrying I still won't be initiating any of the day to day actions of a Police Officer. They have a tough job and sadly this is why sometimes their gun is taken from them and used against them.