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Short story: After recent police visits for noise, kid calls 911 saying man in apartment is stabbing mother and two male children (not his kids). Police arrive at door, apparently one kid is still on phone with 911 and officers can hear someone inside day "no, stop...," but police are not allowed to make entry without supervisor's permission. Sergeant arrives on scene, but still have to get captain's perimission. Captain authorizes entry -- but also has to authorize fire department to make scene to breach the door. Firefighters arrive, break down door, police and firefighters find dead mother, dead son, bleeding son, who dies later at hospital. Two year old girl (daughter of the man and the woman) unharmed. Man found in bathroom with minor self-inflicted wounds.

Time between officer arrival and permission to breach the door was 45 minutes. Took approximately another 10 minutes to get the fire department on scene and the door breached.

Surviving family suing DC for $60 million for wrongful death, but they will not succeed at trial. DC will probably settle for a much smaller amount to make them go away and shut up. There are at least a dozen SCOTUS, Court of Appeals, and state cases that all say, in various ways, the police have no duty to protect you, or even show up. One of the most infamous cases, of course, is Warren vs DC.

More background. This incident happened in March, but apparently the DC police were less than forthcoming about all the details.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/arti ... se-is/full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ELB wrote:the police have no duty to protect you,

I always thought the motto was "To Protect and Serve".

While I do understand that it is my job to protect myself and the cops to figure out what happened later, and whodunnit, but come on, honestly? The cops are at the door and cant bust it down?
is this ONLY in DC? or is this standard practice everywhere?

Teamless wrote:

ELB wrote:the police have no duty to protect you,

I always thought the motto was "To Protect and Serve".

While I do understand that it is my job to protect myself and the cops to figure out what happened later, and whodunnit, but come on, honestly? The cops are at the door and cant bust it down?
is this ONLY in DC? or is this standard practice everywhere?

Under the exigent circumstances exception to the search warrant requirement, any police officer who encounters the circumstances described in the original post would be within the law to immediately breach the door and stop what any reasonable person would perceive as a violent crime in progress where any delay would lead to serious injury or death to innocents.

The policy, procedures, and permissions which reportedly are additional requirements before such protective action can be taken in Washington DC are imposed by the agency, not the law. Their effect on protection of the public is clearly illustrated by the incident under discussion here. Things like this are not put in place to protect the public - they are there to protect the agency from the actions of officers who might otherwise make unlawful entries in less than exigent circumstances.

In many agencies this balancing act is handled either by thoroughly training line officers in proper decision making in what constitutes an exigent circumstance (as was the case in my agency), or by empowering first line supervisors to make a rapid breaching decision based on information from officers at the scene. The first line supervisor would only kick it up to a higher rank if the circumstances were marginal. It doesn't sound like that was the case here.

Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

Teamless wrote:

ELB wrote:the police have no duty to protect you,

... The cops are at the door and cant bust it down?

is this ONLY in DC? or is this standard practice everywhere?

If you are referring to getting a supervisor's authorization... I dunno. Our local cops do not seem to have this kind of problem -- I have seen them make entry when necessary without a lot of delay.

If you are referring to "...no duty to protect..;" yes that is pretty much standard. There is no constitutional duty for the police to protect you as an individual, with certain very limited exceptions. I believe most cops are motivated to do the best they can, but that is an internal moral imperative of the officer and his department, not a legal requirement.

If you have never read it, go check Warren v DC.

You can find more such cases at this link: http://forums.officer.com/forums/showth ... murders-ex" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are practical reasons for this, of course; there are not enough cops --- nor would we want so many--to provide protection for every individual citizen. You would practically need a cop standing next to you 24 hours a day to guarantee protection. However, the constitution recognizes this with the 2A. It is unfortunate that it took the SCOTUS far longer to recognize that self-defense is a fundamental right than it did to recognize that the police have no duty to individuals. It is even more unfortunate that NYC, Chicago, DC, and pretty much any city in California still do not recognize this. (Altho Chicago and DC lost the SCOTUS cases, they are obviously going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming, one case at a time, back within constitutional bounds).

Excaliber wrote:Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

That's true in Texas and the lower the population density the more true it is.

Excaliber wrote:Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

From the President all the way down.

Excaliber wrote:Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

I don't think truer words have ever been spoken.

Excaliber wrote:Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

These kinds of police procedures seem to go hand-in-hand with aggressive anti-gun and anti-selfdefense political domains . I have to wonder why any cop would continue to work under policies that produce results like this? Really, if you have to stand outside a door for an hour waiting for permission from a superior to enter while people are obviously being murdered inside, what's the point of being a police officer?

VMI77 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

These kinds of police procedures seem to go hand-in-hand with aggressive anti-gun and anti-selfdefense political domains . I have to wonder why any cop would continue to work under policies that produce results like this? Really, if you have to stand outside a door for an hour waiting for permission from a superior to enter while people are obviously being murdered inside, what's the point of being a police officer?

I couldn't do it...I'd would hvae been getting fired for not waiting.

Texas Size 11 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

These kinds of police procedures seem to go hand-in-hand with aggressive anti-gun and anti-selfdefense political domains . I have to wonder why any cop would continue to work under policies that produce results like this? Really, if you have to stand outside a door for an hour waiting for permission from a superior to enter while people are obviously being murdered inside, what's the point of being a police officer?

I couldn't do it...I'd would hvae been getting fired for not waiting.

You and me both.

Texas Size 11 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Don't take this sorry series of events as typical of what you can expect from your local police. It is the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

These kinds of police procedures seem to go hand-in-hand with aggressive anti-gun and anti-selfdefense political domains . I have to wonder why any cop would continue to work under policies that produce results like this? Really, if you have to stand outside a door for an hour waiting for permission from a superior to enter while people are obviously being murdered inside, what's the point of being a police officer?

I couldn't do it...I'd would hvae been getting fired for not waiting.

Under the circumstances as reported here, any officer I worked with would have acted without hesitation to protect innocent life.

Maybe this just happens on tv on in the movies but I was under the impression all the LEO needed was to hear or see something (like a scream, body on floor) to have probable cause to go ahead and enter without having a warrant or getting permission.

Excaliber wrote: ...
Keep in mind that this happened in what is probably the most dysfunctional city in America. Nothing works to the benefit of the public in DC.

VMI77 wrote: ......These kinds of police procedures seem to go hand-in-hand with aggressive anti-gun and anti-selfdefense political domains . I have to wonder why any cop would continue to work under policies that produce results like this?...?

seniorshooteress wrote:Maybe this just happens on tv on in the movies but I was under the impression all the LEO needed was to hear or see something (like a scream, body on floor) to have probable cause to go ahead and enter without having a warrant or getting permission.

Along these lines...one of the amicus briefs for the Heller case had a recent (i.e. last 20 years or so) history of the DC police department. Very scary stuff, especially in the 90s, if I remember correctly. They went on a diversity kick, which translated to accepting people with criminal records, and in some cases not bothering to run serious background checks on others. Of course this had predictable results. I doubt they have recovered from that yet. But what can one expect from a city that repeatedly elects people with records like Marion Barry?

Aside from all that, the point of the original post was that this was (a highly extreme) example of why you are ultimately responsible for your own safety and security, whether you like it or not and whether you are capable of it or not. I have no doubt that pretty much any other police officer in the country would try harder than the DC police, but if they don't, or they fail, not only do you suffer the consequences, but you cannot hold them legally responsible for that failure. An officer might suffer repercussions from his own department for failing to act more aggressively, but you (or your surviving family) as the victim are not owed any duty to be specifically protected, with very few exceptions.

Would definately have been fired because I couldnt just stand there and do nothing while listening to that. How do they look in the mirror to shave or sleep at night?

pops1982 wrote:How do they look in the mirror to shave...

Easy, don't make eye contact.