NYPD shoots bystanders; suspect charged

[mojo84]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

[Jaguar]

Just to be clear, in no way do I think the gawdawful triggers on NYPD firearms excuses the officers. It is a training issue and the gawdawful triggers were created in response to a training issue while at the same time making other training deficiencies more apparent - especially to bystanders.

I believe the bystanders hit by the NYPD should "sue, baby sue" and win big. Maybe then they will do a cost justification model that shows taking the time and cost to train properly is a better investment than making NYPD triggers that the rest of the civilized would finds unsuitable in real life.

Then again what do I know. I do have a sweet used Kahr K9 that the NYPD had to sell because the trigger pull wasn't high enough - I lightened it even further and carry it daily and I consider it a good investment.

[A-R]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

I dunno is there a member here (other than you) saying that?

[mojo84]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

I dunno is there a member here (other than you) saying that?

Like I said, it was alluded to by a couple of posters by bringing it up in this thread. I even quoted it so even you could understand what I was referencing. Now I am done playing the game with you.

[A-R]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

I dunno is there a member here (other than you) saying that?

Like I said, it was alluded to by a couple of posters by bringing it up in this thread. I even quoted it so even you could understand what I was referencing. Now I am done playing the game with you.

Well since they were merely casually alluding to it, then seems self evident there is no report or other evidence of it being a factor other than their casual speculation.

[EEllis]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/0 ... -shooting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can’t throw money at a problem that needs to be fixed through training, but you shouldn’t use equipment that holds you back when you know you can do better, either. And in this case, it seems like the NYPD needs to do both; get some help training their officers AND stop requiring the “ND-proof” 12 pound trigger. Unless they like their cops shooting bystanders, that is.

[WildBill]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

I dunno is there a member here (other than you) saying that?

Like I said, it was alluded to by a couple of posters by bringing it up in this thread. I even quoted it so even you could understand what I was referencing. Now I am done playing the game with you.

Well since they were merely casually alluding to it, then seems self evident there is no report or other evidence of it being a factor other than their casual speculation.

I think that some people are getting a bit too tense and defensive. Neither the NYPD nor any other agency is not going to put into any report that states that the [relatively] heavy trigger-pull of the Glock was the cause or reason for shooting a bystander.

IMO a heavy trigger pull detracts from accuracy, but the NYPD officers use the tools that they are authorized to use.

[03Lightningrocks]

I asked one question about the triggers, some folks answered, and all of sudden people assume we are making excuses shooting innocents.

I used to look forward to meeting forum members whether buying or selling guns and gear, grabbing lunch, or sitting in a booth at a gun show. I'm not so certain I'd be interested in that anymore.

You might not believe this but I can be fun to get lunch with.

[03Lightningrocks]

Yep. They are.

Is there a report saying the heavy triggers "had something to do with it" ?

I dunno is there a member here (other than you) saying that?

Like I said, it was alluded to by a couple of posters by bringing it up in this thread. I even quoted it so even you could understand what I was referencing. Now I am done playing the game with you.

Well since they were merely casually alluding to it, then seems self evident there is no report or other evidence of it being a factor other than their casual speculation.

I think that some people are getting a bit too tense and defensive. Neither the NYPD nor any other agency is not going to put into any report that states that the [relatively] heavy trigger-pull of the Glock was the cause or reason for shooting a bystander.

IMO a heavy trigger pull detracts from accuracy, but the NYPD officers use the tools that they are authorized to use.

That happens a lot on inter web forums. I'm not making excuses for anyone but I think it is in part because reading and typing with no human interaction can cause meanings to be misinterpreted. I know there have been times when I read something on a forum and took it to heart and then later read it again and felt like a dip when I realized I took it wrong.

[03Lightningrocks]

I think a light trigger pull is only a problem if a person has not practiced enough with their weapon. But that is just my experience with it. Similar to a person moving directly from a Glock type pull to a 1911 pull. The first few rounds will probably get touched off quicker than expected.

Like any other occupation. There are those that practice with the tools of their trade and there are those who just try to get by.

[EEllis]

I think a light trigger pull is only a problem if a person has not practiced enough with their weapon. But that is just my experience with it. Similar to a person moving directly from a Glock type pull to a 1911 pull. The first few rounds will probably get touched off quicker than expected.

Like any other occupation. There are those that practice with the tools of their trade and there are those who just try to get by.

The NYPD and a few other depts in NY changed to what is called the NY2 trigger which has a trigger pull of 12lbs. while the normal trigger pull for a Glock would be about 5.5lbs. Double action only. The NY1 trigger id 8lbs. just for added info.

[03Lightningrocks]

I think a light trigger pull is only a problem if a person has not practiced enough with their weapon. But that is just my experience with it. Similar to a person moving directly from a Glock type pull to a 1911 pull. The first few rounds will probably get touched off quicker than expected.

Like any other occupation. There are those that practice with the tools of their trade and there are those who just try to get by.

The NYPD and a few other depts in NY changed to what is called the NY2 trigger which has a trigger pull of 12lbs. while the normal trigger pull for a Glock would be about 5.5lbs. Double action only. The NY1 trigger id 8lbs. just for added info.

On the New York police department, they have to do finger exercises so they can pull the trigger.

Btw... I read the link you posted. I can completely agree that a heavy trigger pull like they are using is a severe impediment to accuracy.

[Excaliber]

I think a light trigger pull is only a problem if a person has not practiced enough with their weapon. But that is just my experience with it. Similar to a person moving directly from a Glock type pull to a 1911 pull. The first few rounds will probably get touched off quicker than expected.

Like any other occupation. There are those that practice with the tools of their trade and there are those who just try to get by.

The NYPD and a few other depts in NY changed to what is called the NY2 trigger which has a trigger pull of 12lbs. while the normal trigger pull for a Glock would be about 5.5lbs. Double action only. The NY1 trigger id 8lbs. just for added info.

On the New York police department, they have to do finger exercises so they can pull the trigger.

Btw... I read the link you posted. I can completely agree that a heavy trigger pull like they are using is a severe impediment to accuracy.

A bit of historical perspective may be of use here.

Until the mid to late 1980's, police sidearms were almost exclusively double action revolvers with long trigger pulls with weights of between 12 - 14 pounds.

The functionally unnecessary increased Glock trigger pull weight is unquestionably an impediment to fine trigger control. However, those who take responsibility for their own skills will practice harder to compensate.

Those who do not take responsibility for their own skills will not be materially helped by lighter triggers.

The real issues are officers who place their fingers inside the trigger guard before they're ready to shoot, and insufficient range time to maintain proficiency.

[jmra]

I think a light trigger pull is only a problem if a person has not practiced enough with their weapon. But that is just my experience with it. Similar to a person moving directly from a Glock type pull to a 1911 pull. The first few rounds will probably get touched off quicker than expected.

Like any other occupation. There are those that practice with the tools of their trade and there are those who just try to get by.

The NYPD and a few other depts in NY changed to what is called the NY2 trigger which has a trigger pull of 12lbs. while the normal trigger pull for a Glock would be about 5.5lbs. Double action only. The NY1 trigger id 8lbs. just for added info.

On the New York police department, they have to do finger exercises so they can pull the trigger.

Btw... I read the link you posted. I can completely agree that a heavy trigger pull like they are using is a severe impediment to accuracy.

A bit of historical perspective may be of use here.

Until the mid to late 1980's, police sidearms were almost exclusively double action revolvers with long trigger pulls with weights of between 12 - 14 pounds.

The functionally unnecessary increased Glock trigger pull weight is unquestionably an impediment to fine trigger control. However, those who take responsibility for their own skills will practice harder to compensate.

Those who do not take responsibility for their own skills will not be materially helped by lighter triggers.

The real issues are officers who place their fingers inside the trigger guard before they're ready to shoot, and insufficient range time to maintain proficiency.

Isn't range time already an issue for NYC cops?

[WildBill]

Isn't range time already an issue for NYC cops?

Excaliber commented on that subject in another thread.

NYPD has a very difficult time maintaining firearms skill. Their single range facility at Rodman's neck is always fully scheduled, but getting 35,000 people through just qualifications, let alone additional training, is a monumental challenge. This is complicated by the fact that many of their officers do not shoot on their own time and dime because they see it as a compensation issue and will not shoot if they're not being paid to do so. It shouldn't surprise anyone when these circumstances culminate in incidents like the one last week.

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