Holy cow, what's happening in LA CA

[texanjoker]

Video of firefight. Pretty intense.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[VMI77]

Wow...if that is true they burned him alive......I don't think I like those tactics at all. Sounds like they could have gotten him alive and wanted to kill him instead. Not okay.

Are you serious? How would you expect them to get this guy alive?

According to how I'm interpreting what CNN reported, they already had him, then pushed him back in the burning cabin.

I'm having trouble believing it, really.

Once again this shows people are not paying attention and just buying what the media is saying. They then jump on the typical anti LE bandwagon before any facts are even out. Every outlet I saw during the incident said he tried to escape out the back, and found LE had the perimeter set up. There was another gun battle and he went back into the house. No where did I see a news article saying they "Pushed" him into a burning house.

Mark Furhman said it best, why not give the LE's there a break ?

They lost one during the incident, and another is critical. The one that died per a media report was married and his wife just had a baby.

There are lots of facts out, and they don't speak well of law enforcement --especially the LAPD:

1. They riddled a truck with 40 rounds, wounding an innocent woman --the truck was different than the truck Dorner was driving, and contained two women, not a big black man. The shots were from behind. If any of us did that defending our families, we'd be in prison. It smells like an assassination attempt, not a legitimate use of deadly force even if Dorner had been in the vehicle. Obviously they didn't even know who they were shooting at.

2. They rammed another vehicle, and then fired shots into it. This vehicle also did not contain a large black man, and since other officers had just cleared the vehicle to pass, it obviously was not self-defense or a legitimate use of deadly force. Neither of these two incidents can be reasonably passed off as "mistaken identity" as the LAPD is dishonestly trying to do --with a compliant media.

3. Law enforcement did it's best to keep the Dorner siege off camera. They even tried to stop an already compliant news media from tweeting reports of events. Maybe there is a legitimate reason for it, but it smells like they intended to do something that they didn't want to see the light of day.

4. The LAPD has a reputation for dirty dealing and corruption going back almost a century. Back when I was a kid in the Los Angeles area in the 50s and 60s, my very conservative pro-law enforcement father talked about how corrupt LAPD was. They were not that long ago under court supervision. Dorner made entirely credible charges of dirty dealing and corruption. Given their history you'd think they would play this situation out very transparently and carefully --they didn't. It played out more like they were desperate to get the guy and shut him up. Many many people said there was no way law enforcement would take him alive and let him see the inside of a courtroom. And maybe he wouldn't have allowed himself to be captured anyway, but law enforcement did nothing to help allay suspicions....in fact, the acted in the shadows, and keep their action off camera, when you think they'd want witnesses so their conduct couldn't be questioned.

5. Officers were recorded saying "we're going to burn him out," to "burn this ********, and "burn that ***** house down." Now, the first two comments may be compatible with calling CS canisters burners, but the "burn down" comment is not.

The LAPD doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubt --they have nearly a 100 year long history of sowing doubt and distrust. The final saga was played out in ways that arouse suspicion rather than in a transparent way that would allay suspicion, so I don't see where any benefit of the doubt is due LE there either. It may be all on the up and up, but by their own actions, they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

[PUCKER]

This is up on Drudge right now...there's some naughty words on this link but the content is HIGHLY disturbing...as in "burn this down"...etc....so much for the Constitution.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What constitutional issue? If you are thinking the 4th, I disagree. They were in fresh pursuit of this guy after a gun battle that killed 1 deputy and wounded another. In addition, there was at least one active warrant for his arrest for murder so that gave LE authority to be there regardless of the fresh pursuit and exigent circumstances that currently existed. That included the right to arrest him, make entry into the residence to get him, and use force to effect the arrest. LE may use any reasonable and necessary force to take one into custody up to and including deadly force. This wacko dictated the events and deadly force was clearly justifiable.

Listen to the link...sounds like they handed out street justice. You are a cop, right? It sickens my stomach to here cops say what was said on the video. I get it, the bad guy was a bad guy...but the cops still have to follow due process of law.

[texanjoker]

Wow...if that is true they burned him alive......I don't think I like those tactics at all. Sounds like they could have gotten him alive and wanted to kill him instead. Not okay.

Are you serious? How would you expect them to get this guy alive?

According to how I'm interpreting what CNN reported, they already had him, then pushed him back in the burning cabin.

I'm having trouble believing it, really.

Once again this shows people are not paying attention and just buying what the media is saying. They then jump on the typical anti LE bandwagon before any facts are even out. Every outlet I saw during the incident said he tried to escape out the back, and found LE had the perimeter set up. There was another gun battle and he went back into the house. No where did I see a news article saying they "Pushed" him into a burning house.

Mark Furhman said it best, why not give the LE's there a break ?

They lost one during the incident, and another is critical. The one that died per a media report was married and his wife just had a baby.

There are lots of facts out, and they don't speak well of law enforcement --especially the LAPD:

1. They riddled a truck with 40 rounds, wounding an innocent woman --the truck was different than the truck Dorner was driving, and contained two women, not a big black man. The shots were from behind. If any of us did that defending our families, we'd be in prison. It smells like an assassination attempt, not a legitimate use of deadly force even if Dorner had been in the vehicle. Obviously they didn't even know who they were shooting at.

2. They rammed another vehicle, and then fired shots into it. This vehicle also did not contain a large black man, and since other officers had just cleared the vehicle to pass, it obviously was not self-defense or a legitimate use of deadly force. Neither of these two incidents can be reasonably passed off as "mistaken identity" as the LAPD is dishonestly trying to do --with a compliant media.

3. Law enforcement did it's best to keep the Dorner siege off camera. They even tried to stop an already compliant news media from tweeting reports of events. Maybe there is a legitimate reason for it, but it smells like they intended to do something that they didn't want to see the light of day.

4. The LAPD has a reputation for dirty dealing and corruption going back almost a century. Back when I was a kid in the Los Angeles area in the 50s and 60s, my very conservative pro-law enforcement father talked about how corrupt LAPD was. They were not that long ago under court supervision. Dorner made entirely credible charges of dirty dealing and corruption. Given their history you'd think they would play this situation out very transparently and carefully --they didn't. It played out more like they were desperate to get the guy and shut him up. Many many people said there was no way law enforcement would take him alive and let him see the inside of a courtroom. And maybe he wouldn't have allowed himself to be captured anyway, but law enforcement did nothing to help allay suspicions....in fact, the acted in the shadows, and keep their action off camera, when you think they'd want witnesses so their conduct couldn't be questioned.

5. Officers were recorded saying "we're going to burn him out," to "burn this ********, and "burn that ***** house down." Now, the first two comments may be compatible with calling CS canisters burners, but the "burn down" comment is not.

The LAPD doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubt --they have nearly a 100 year long history of sowing doubt and distrust. The final saga was played out in ways that arouse suspicion rather than in a transparent way that would allay suspicion, so I don't see where any benefit of the doubt is due LE there either. It may be all on the up and up, but by their own actions, they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

You do realize this was NOT LAPD in big bear? It was the San Berndardino County Sheriff and other state and local agencies involved? The 2 LEO"s shot, 1 dead were San Berndardino County deputies. Big Bear is a couple of hours away from LA.

# 1,2,4 above are not part of the Big Bear incident. Different agency, different events, different use of force investigations.
3 tactically they needed that. They also were overheard on audio scanner traffic telling officers to quit broadcasting their positions. That is normal in events like this to keep the suspect from seeing positions, ect. They also go to scrambled channels to make sure nobody listens in.
5 - even if they did intentionally burn it down, so be it. That would also be a very bold decision to intentionally do that and the commanders in charge would know they would get heat for it. However they already lost 1 that day, had 1 more wounded, and others died before that day. They had active arrests warrants for murder to be there and also had the right to be there to effect the arrest due to his current actions. Force can be used to effect an arrest up to and including deadly force. The mission would be to not loose any more LEO's or innocent civilians and take this guy into custody. If the wacko chose to off himself vs surrendering that was his choice. At any point he could have surrendered.

[PUCKER]

You do realize this was NOT LAPD in big bear? It was the San Berndardino County Sheriff and other state and local agencies involved? The 2 LEO"s shot, 1 dead were San Berndardino County deputies. Big Bear is a couple of hours away from LA.

I believe LAPD SWAT was airlifted in...I remember hearing that on the news reports.

[talltex]

Mark Furhman said it best, why not give the LE's there a break ?

They lost one during the incident, and another is critical. The one that died per a media report was married and his wife just had a baby.

There are lots of facts out, and they don't speak well of law enforcement --especially the LAPD:

1. They riddled a truck with 40 rounds, wounding an innocent woman --the truck was different than the truck Dorner was driving, and contained two women, not a big black man. The shots were from behind. If any of us did that defending our families, we'd be in prison. It smells like an assassination attempt, not a legitimate use of deadly force even if Dorner had been in the vehicle. Obviously they didn't even know who they were shooting at.

2. They rammed another vehicle, and then fired shots into it. This vehicle also did not contain a large black man, and since other officers had just cleared the vehicle to pass, it obviously was not self-defense or a legitimate use of deadly force. Neither of these two incidents can be reasonably passed off as "mistaken identity" as the LAPD is dishonestly trying to do --with a compliant media.

Anyone who thought that this would end with Dorner alive is naive...not defending him or his actions, but there's no way to justify all the LAPD's actions. The death of the Law Enforcement officers and other's is tragic, but still doesn't excuse LA police opening fire on innocent citizens. The attempt by the LAPD to excuse it as mistaken identity and the officers being highly stressed and jumpy is ridiculous. How can you call it mistaken identity when obviously NO attempt to identify was made. Why does that kind of behaviour deserve a break? Any civilian that acted that irresponsibly would be in jail right now.

[talltex]

You do realize this was NOT LAPD in big bear? It was the San Berndardino County Sheriff and other state and local agencies involved? The 2 LEO"s shot, 1 dead were San Berndardino County deputies. Big Bear is a couple of hours away from LA.

I believe LAPD SWAT was airlifted in...I remember hearing that on the news reports.

My comments are directed toward what happened in LA...what happened at the cabin will probably never be clear, but I don't believe they intended to take him alive. From day one when he shot the first LEO, his fate was pretty much sealed.

[anygunanywhere]

They were true professionals and did the job that needed to be done.

Tell that to the women delivering newspapers.

Anygunanywhere

What does that incident have to do with this incident? That was a different department, different officers and different circumstances.

A lot. Same fugitive. Same laws. Same Constitution. Same State. Same Attorney General. True, different departments. People are the same everywhere. No difference.

Appearances might be like you are describing but I seriously doubt that all above board. Besides the aleged perp, the other player is LAPD, regardless which agency brought him down.

Anygunanywhere

[texanjoker]

I was watching KTLA when this was live. They said LAPD had swat at the LA airport. I really doubt they got their in time if they responded to be part of this. They would need additional teams though because if this lasted, they would need relief. I also think LAPD would specifically keep their guys out of it just to avoid this type of internet monday night quarterbacking that is going on. Based on this news article, they obviously had the same thoughts I had that they needed to avoid this going into night fall.

http://ktla.com/2013/02/13/cabin-dormer ... z2Ki3lbCYZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just before 5 p.m., authorities smashed the cabin’s windows, pumped in tear gas and called for the suspect to surrender, officials said.

They got no response. Then, using a demolition vehicle, they tore down the cabin’s walls one by one.

When they reached the last wall, they heard a gunshot. Then the cabin burst into flames, officials said.



Read more: http://ktla.com/2013/02/13/cabin-dormer ... z2KnZSTZjH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Read more at http://ktla.com/2013/02/13/cabin-dormer ... YUxyVad.99" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mamabearCali]

Amazing. Rule of the law? What rule is that? Based on the fact he was a wanted murder suspect, the days events to include not surrendering during this incident, engaged in a rolling gun fight with officers, then killed another officer, shot another, threw at least one smoke grenade at the officers, deadly force was clearly authorized by law. In CA you may used deadly force to protect your life, or the life of another. In addition you may use deadly force to prevent a dangerous felon from fleeing. There is case law to back that up. By all accounts all 3 of those elements have been met, and they only needed one to be legal. The law doesn't state how you use deadly force, only that you may when elements are met. If the PD smoke or tear gas devices, set the fire so be it. I personally don't have a problem if they intentionally set it either. That would have been a good tactic to get him out of the house because the smoke/gas was not working vs attempting entry against a heavily armed combat veteran that had already used a smoke device against the police. . Given the fact it was going to get dark soon, tactically speaking they needed this over before that point as this guy knew basic police tactics and was a combat veteran. Even when the fire started, he could have surrendered, but didn't. It sounds like he probably shot himself at that point as one shot was heard. He may have been wounded as well during the 20 plus minute gun fight. IMO there is no black mark over the fire and this was a successful outcome because no further LEO's were shot or killed, there are no reports of any civilians being harmed and the suspect is in custody. Yes being dead counts as in custody. Houses can be rebuilt. The DA's office ( different process in CA) will review the use of force. I cannot see this not being ruled a justifiable homicide (CA terms).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is a very fine line you are walking there. As you are a LEO and must actually make decisions like that I plead with you to be very careful. We had a local LEO here in VA fall on the wrong side of that line and end up being sentenced to three years in jail.

This dude was a bad man, no doubt, but I am not sure anyone deserves to burn to death. You may disagree, but that is a particularly brutal death. If it happened as you say, and they were pulling down walls and it was "incidental if not accidental" then that is one thing. He made his own bed, in my opinion, in that case. If they lit the cabin on fire, then while it may be legal, it sure does look bad. It may be within the law, but to the average citizen (who is used to people shooting at the police being shot in return) it looks nefarious. Sometimes what something looks like is important too, especially when it is a high profile case.

As a side note, I do not think that it was likely that even if he came out with his hands up that he would have been taken alive. Especially if it was the LA swat team there (which is still unknown to me at this point). I think the LAPD would have executed him even if he had given himself up. How do I know that, look at what they did to the two people delivering mail and the poor fellow in the other truck. Perhaps the San Bernadino cops are better than the LAPD, I sure hope so, could not be any worse.

[VMI77]

Wow...if that is true they burned him alive......I don't think I like those tactics at all. Sounds like they could have gotten him alive and wanted to kill him instead. Not okay.

Are you serious? How would you expect them to get this guy alive?

According to how I'm interpreting what CNN reported, they already had him, then pushed him back in the burning cabin.

I'm having trouble believing it, really.

Once again this shows people are not paying attention and just buying what the media is saying. They then jump on the typical anti LE bandwagon before any facts are even out. Every outlet I saw during the incident said he tried to escape out the back, and found LE had the perimeter set up. There was another gun battle and he went back into the house. No where did I see a news article saying they "Pushed" him into a burning house.

Mark Furhman said it best, why not give the LE's there a break ?

They lost one during the incident, and another is critical. The one that died per a media report was married and his wife just had a baby.

There are lots of facts out, and they don't speak well of law enforcement --especially the LAPD:

1. They riddled a truck with 40 rounds, wounding an innocent woman --the truck was different than the truck Dorner was driving, and contained two women, not a big black man. The shots were from behind. If any of us did that defending our families, we'd be in prison. It smells like an assassination attempt, not a legitimate use of deadly force even if Dorner had been in the vehicle. Obviously they didn't even know who they were shooting at.

2. They rammed another vehicle, and then fired shots into it. This vehicle also did not contain a large black man, and since other officers had just cleared the vehicle to pass, it obviously was not self-defense or a legitimate use of deadly force. Neither of these two incidents can be reasonably passed off as "mistaken identity" as the LAPD is dishonestly trying to do --with a compliant media.

3. Law enforcement did it's best to keep the Dorner siege off camera. They even tried to stop an already compliant news media from tweeting reports of events. Maybe there is a legitimate reason for it, but it smells like they intended to do something that they didn't want to see the light of day.

4. The LAPD has a reputation for dirty dealing and corruption going back almost a century. Back when I was a kid in the Los Angeles area in the 50s and 60s, my very conservative pro-law enforcement father talked about how corrupt LAPD was. They were not that long ago under court supervision. Dorner made entirely credible charges of dirty dealing and corruption. Given their history you'd think they would play this situation out very transparently and carefully --they didn't. It played out more like they were desperate to get the guy and shut him up. Many many people said there was no way law enforcement would take him alive and let him see the inside of a courtroom. And maybe he wouldn't have allowed himself to be captured anyway, but law enforcement did nothing to help allay suspicions....in fact, the acted in the shadows, and keep their action off camera, when you think they'd want witnesses so their conduct couldn't be questioned.

5. Officers were recorded saying "we're going to burn him out," to "burn this ********, and "burn that ***** house down." Now, the first two comments may be compatible with calling CS canisters burners, but the "burn down" comment is not.

The LAPD doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubt --they have nearly a 100 year long history of sowing doubt and distrust. The final saga was played out in ways that arouse suspicion rather than in a transparent way that would allay suspicion, so I don't see where any benefit of the doubt is due LE there either. It may be all on the up and up, but by their own actions, they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

You do realize this was NOT LAPD in big bear? It was the San Berndardino County Sheriff and other state and local agencies involved? The 2 LEO"s shot, 1 dead were San Berndardino County deputies. Big Bear is a couple of hours away from LA.

# 1,2,4 above are not part of the Big Bear incident. Different agency, different events, different use of force investigations.
3 tactically they needed that. They also were overheard on audio scanner traffic telling officers to quit broadcasting their positions. That is normal in events like this to keep the suspect from seeing positions, ect. They also go to scrambled channels to make sure nobody listens in.
5 - even if they did intentionally burn it down, so be it. That would also be a very bold decision to intentionally do that and the commanders in charge would know they would get heat for it. However they already lost 1 that day, had 1 more wounded, and others died before that day. They had active arrests warrants for murder to be there and also had the right to be there to effect the arrest due to his current actions. Force can be used to effect an arrest up to and including deadly force. The mission would be to not loose any more LEO's or innocent civilians and take this guy into custody. If the wacko chose to off himself vs surrendering that was his choice. At any point he could have surrendered.

Red: Yes, that's why I said "other LE" regarding that part of the saga.

Blue: Dorner apparently didn't kill any citizens who were not associated with the LAPD. Yes, he killed innocent people, but he wasn't out killing people in the general public. However, the LAPD attempted to kill three innocent citizens. The justification you're using for burning him out would also justify a drone strike. You may consider killing someone to be taking them into custody, but I doubt most Americans would see it that way. I grant, it may not have been possible to capture this guy alive, but they didn't really try, either. The police have kept gunmen under siege for months. They had him surrounded so what was the hurry? He wasn't going to get away. I think the notion that because the police determine a guy is a bad dude and get tired of waiting they can just kill him is a bad one. In this case I don't think there is any doubt about his guilt, but that is supposed to be decided by a court, not the police. It's a very dangerous precedent to allow the police to determine guilt and carry out a death penalty --if that was done here (and you say you approve if it was). Next time guilt might not be so clear, and that's to say nothing of a case when it may be in the self-interest of the police to kill someone who has information that might put some of them in prison, and is accused of some crime by those same police.

The rest: So, you're telling us that there is no camaraderie in law enforcement? That if a cop killer kills an LA Cop the SB deputies aren't going to care so much because the dead cop worked for another agency? They also had one of theirs killed. You're saying that SB County wouldn't help out with shutting up a guy claiming LAPD corruption who had killed LA cops and one of their own? And you're saying that the LAPD has no influence with surrounding LE agencies? Seriously?

Let me be very clear: I am saying that the shooting incidents in LA were outrageous applications of deadly force and the officers who discharged their weapons should be prosecuted just like any of us would be. At worse, they were assassination attempts. At best, they were negligent actions showing a complete disregard for the public they supposedly "serve and protect." I'm not saying SB County did anything wrong --I don't know-- but they sure created an appearance of intending to do so and leaving open the question of if they did. There is a stink associated with the actions of the LAPD and it is enough of a stink to warrant acting in an open and above board manner so that the public has nothing to be suspicious of regarding police conduct.

[Beiruty]

Cut it short. This guy was simply terminated as soon as he was located. He was Hunted down and smoked out a bit.
What do you expect? It is LPDA in 2013.

[jmra]

Great post VMI77. I grow weary of those who act as if LE can do no wrong. The LAPD has a lot to answer for. Hopefully it doesn't all get swept under the rug.
As for the compliant media...maybe they didn't want their vehicles to get all shot up with them inside.

[Beiruty]

I expect a multi-million law suit and settlement from the 2 newspaper distributor ladies. They deserve it, the shooters LEO should be fired.

[Redneck_Buddha]

L.A. Confidential is a great movie, IMHO, and very accurate to the times (Early 50s).