Fort Worth police shoot elderly man

[SSGMWP]

Rookies father was retired Captain and cadet trainer. Not looking good for Ft worth PD training.

[texanjoker]

A burglary alarm call is way to common, and in my experience of going to hundreds of false residential alarms, a true waste of tax payer resources. Many larger cities are stopping the response all together unless there is something more. It is always the home owner setting it off accidentally. I cannot even recall ever responding to a valid residential alarm. Regarding experience, you are going to get whatever two units are available. If they were on their own, they are out of the training car and respond to calls accordingly. That is how it works everywhere. If something comes up, then a supervisor or senior officer will respond to assist if warranted.

I read some postings in here about the wrong address. It is easy to not find the correct address in the dark. Many people have poor if no lighting, and do not have their address displayed in a visible manner. When responding to calls like this, you want the element of surprise and are not going to spot light each house to find an address because you have to treat each alarm as a potential valid alarm. Everybody should take the time and make sure they have it on their house. One day you may need EMS and the extra time they take trying to find the house could be deadly.

I agree that having PD responding to alarm calls is a huge waste of taxpayer money...all that does is support the companies that sell the alarm systems, and provide the purchasers with a false sense of security. I also agree with your comments on experience...in an ideal world it'd be nice to always have an older more experienced officer on the scene, but that's not realistic, and at some point the rookies have to be cut loose on their own. Anytime something like this happens, you can always wonder if more experience might have made a difference, but we will never know. As to the wrong address...there I will take issue...the officers have the duty and responsibility to make SURE they are at the right location BEFORE they take any aggressive action, period. The risks to both the homeowner and the officers are just too high to do otherwise. If they have ANY doubt, then they don't need to be walking around to the backside of the property unannounced...better to let a "possible" burglar get away, than get in this situation. In this case, if you look at the video, you can plainly see the address stenciled on the curb at the end of the driveway...right where they approached. They just screwed up and went to the wrong house, and killed an innocent man because of their mistakes.

That's the "old way," as incident after incident continues to demonstrate. Now we have SWAT raids on innocent people because someone at another address was SUSPECTED of selling marijuana and the police got the wrong address. Lethal force is used so people won't consume a drug that is probably less destructive than alcohol. You see the NYPD expending over 40 rounds on a guy armed with a wallet and the LAPD emptying their guns in a vehicle without even knowing who is in it. The police now launch SWAT raids on people for selling raw milk and not paying their student loans. The police go to the wrong address and shoot dogs first and ask questions later. "Officer safety" now seems to have priority over every other consideration. Remember how the police sat out side Columbine HS while two teenage boys continued their killing spree? How often do you hear the mantra "a LEO just wants to come home to his family at the end of the day?" Have you ever heard it said about an innocent victim of a police shooting that "he just wanted to come home to his family at the end of the day?" I've heard from a number of recent combat vets that the military has more restrictive ROEs in WAR ZONES than LEO's in the US. But apparently, the military is concerned with not alienating the locals, something which our government here at home doesn't care about so much.

Read the comments following articles like this one: they are overwhelmingly critical of police behavior and express the belief that the police are above the law. Incidents like this, which as you point out, seem to show that LE too often lacks any sense of proportion. So we have a LEO saying that he's never responded to a legitimate residential alarm and at the same time using the alarm call as the justification for shooting an old man in his garage. The police just didn't act like this 30 years ago. You can even see it in the movies. For instance, compare "Dog Day Afternoon" made in 1975 to "Inside Man," made in 2006. Both movies depict the NYPD response to a bank robbery involving hostages. Among other things, In one, the police treat the hostages with concern and respect, and in the other they treat the hostages as criminals. Guess which is which? "Mistakes" like this are all too common and the end result will be increased distrust of the police which will breed reciprocal mistrust of citizens (what we used to be called, now we're "civilians"), and that in turn will lead to more incidents like this one.

Excuse me, but where did I justify this shooting? I posted some general comments about alarm calls and finding addresses so do not put words in my mouth. In addition age has no bearing on this incident. The guy was shot because he allegedly had a gun in his hand. Besides, there are too few facts to know what happened in this incident. They will do an investigation and the facts will come out.

Comparing police work to movies?

[VMI77]

A burglary alarm call is way to common, and in my experience of going to hundreds of false residential alarms, a true waste of tax payer resources. Many larger cities are stopping the response all together unless there is something more. It is always the home owner setting it off accidentally. I cannot even recall ever responding to a valid residential alarm. Regarding experience, you are going to get whatever two units are available. If they were on their own, they are out of the training car and respond to calls accordingly. That is how it works everywhere. If something comes up, then a supervisor or senior officer will respond to assist if warranted.

I read some postings in here about the wrong address. It is easy to not find the correct address in the dark. Many people have poor if no lighting, and do not have their address displayed in a visible manner. When responding to calls like this, you want the element of surprise and are not going to spot light each house to find an address because you have to treat each alarm as a potential valid alarm. Everybody should take the time and make sure they have it on their house. One day you may need EMS and the extra time they take trying to find the house could be deadly.

I agree that having PD responding to alarm calls is a huge waste of taxpayer money...all that does is support the companies that sell the alarm systems, and provide the purchasers with a false sense of security. I also agree with your comments on experience...in an ideal world it'd be nice to always have an older more experienced officer on the scene, but that's not realistic, and at some point the rookies have to be cut loose on their own. Anytime something like this happens, you can always wonder if more experience might have made a difference, but we will never know. As to the wrong address...there I will take issue...the officers have the duty and responsibility to make SURE they are at the right location BEFORE they take any aggressive action, period. The risks to both the homeowner and the officers are just too high to do otherwise. If they have ANY doubt, then they don't need to be walking around to the backside of the property unannounced...better to let a "possible" burglar get away, than get in this situation. In this case, if you look at the video, you can plainly see the address stenciled on the curb at the end of the driveway...right where they approached. They just screwed up and went to the wrong house, and killed an innocent man because of their mistakes.

That's the "old way," as incident after incident continues to demonstrate. Now we have SWAT raids on innocent people because someone at another address was SUSPECTED of selling marijuana and the police got the wrong address. Lethal force is used so people won't consume a drug that is probably less destructive than alcohol. You see the NYPD expending over 40 rounds on a guy armed with a wallet and the LAPD emptying their guns in a vehicle without even knowing who is in it. The police now launch SWAT raids on people for selling raw milk and not paying their student loans. The police go to the wrong address and shoot dogs first and ask questions later. "Officer safety" now seems to have priority over every other consideration. Remember how the police sat out side Columbine HS while two teenage boys continued their killing spree? How often do you hear the mantra "a LEO just wants to come home to his family at the end of the day?" Have you ever heard it said about an innocent victim of a police shooting that "he just wanted to come home to his family at the end of the day?" I've heard from a number of recent combat vets that the military has more restrictive ROEs in WAR ZONES than LEO's in the US. But apparently, the military is concerned with not alienating the locals, something which our government here at home doesn't care about so much.

Read the comments following articles like this one: they are overwhelmingly critical of police behavior and express the belief that the police are above the law. Incidents like this, which as you point out, seem to show that LE too often lacks any sense of proportion. So we have a LEO saying that he's never responded to a legitimate residential alarm and at the same time using the alarm call as the justification for shooting an old man in his garage. The police just didn't act like this 30 years ago. You can even see it in the movies. For instance, compare "Dog Day Afternoon" made in 1975 to "Inside Man," made in 2006. Both movies depict the NYPD response to a bank robbery involving hostages. Among other things, In one, the police treat the hostages with concern and respect, and in the other they treat the hostages as criminals. Guess which is which? "Mistakes" like this are all too common and the end result will be increased distrust of the police which will breed reciprocal mistrust of citizens (what we used to be called, now we're "civilians"), and that in turn will lead to more incidents like this one.

Excuse me, but where did I justify this shooting? I posted some general comments about alarm calls and finding addresses so do not put words in my mouth. In addition age has no bearing on this incident. The guy was shot because he allegedly had a gun in his hand. Besides, there are too few facts to know what happened in this incident. They will do an investigation and the facts will come out.

Comparing police work to movies?

Comparing police work to movies. No, try again. Comparing the way police were depicted 30 years ago to how they're depicted now. Movies reflect the prevailing social conditions and attitudes at the time they were made. The depictions mirror the reality of how the police behave now (see Boston) versus the attitudes police took with citizens then.

Age has no bearing? Seriously....so police are trained to think a guy in his 70s is just as likely to be a burglar as he is to be the home owner? I would be in a robe or pajamas that time of night and I bet he was too. But even if he was fully dressed, what, the police are trained not to consider the possibility they may encounter a home owner with a gun on a burglary call? If you really believe age has no bearing to estimating the probabilities in a situation like this then what you're telling us is that the problems with police and public interactions go way deeper than anyone here has alluded to because the police don't assess risk anymore, they just see a gun and shoot. I want to see the police respected and to live under the rule of law. Shooting old men on their own property is unlikely to produce that result.

That said, I reread your comments and my response and I did mischaracterize your remarks as a justification. For that I apologize. However, as far as the police response goes, it doesn't change much. If LEO's know that a residential alarm is a false alarm almost 100% of the time, that should lead them to be extra careful and aware of the possibility they may encounter an armed citizen, and adjust their response accordingly.

Ignoring the growing problem of police conduct, the Us versus Them attitude, the increasing militarization, thinking of the public as enemy "civilians" instead of citizens, the quick resort to instruments of obedience and compliance like Tasers when us "civilians" don't immediately follow orders, the confiscation of video cameras, the stone-walling when there is an appearance of misconduct, and the increasingly glaring double standard in the use of deadly force is not going to make things better for police officers or citizens --just worse, until at some point the public considers the police to be an occupying force. However we may disagree in this forum I don't think anybody here wants to see that.

[SherwoodForest]

Since an INDEPENDENT investigation will ultimately reveal the facts, I will reserve further commentary.

I would simply offer that efforts to COVER UP the facts, and CONTAIN the situation will prove to be more problematic for the FTWPD than any momentary adrenalin induced lapse in judgement.

[Excaliber]

When I lived in Florida some years ago, the local sheriff's deputies were chasing a burglar through the neighborhood's back yards at night.

I had done what they were doing enough times to be well aware of how these situations can go south, and I stayed inside, alert and armed. As they entered my yard they saw me watching through a window with my gun out of sight. They responded by shining their own flashlights on their uniforms for a second to make sure I understood they were the good guys.

I stood protective watch over my family, they did their duty, and the burglar was caught, all without putting any extra holes in anyone.

Yes, I know they took a bit of risk by momentarily illuminating themselves, and no doubt they did too, but on balance it was the best way to handle what could otherwise easily become a dicey and potentially tragic situation.

A little of what used to be called common sense (before it became uncommon) on both sides goes a long way toward producing happy endings for everyone but the bad guy.

[Oldgringo]

{snip}

A little of what used to be called common sense (before it became uncommon) on both sides goes a long way toward producing happy endings for everyone....

Roger that!

[baldeagle]

I have refrained from commenting so far, but no longer. There seems to be an assumption that because these were rookie cops they must have made a mistake. We don't have the facts yet. It's far too early to speculate.

Here's what the article says.

According to Fort Worth police, the alarm call came just before 1 a.m. in the 400 block of North Havenwood Lane. But after arriving at the scene, officers became involved in a confrontation with a man armed with a gun who was across the street from where the alarm was going off.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

Feeling threatened, at least one officer fired at the man, who was later identified as Jerry Waller, police said. Waller was dead at the scene, in his own garage.

The article doesn't say what made them feel threatened. It also doesn't say Mr. Waller was in his garage when he was shot - only that he was dead in his garage.

Before I jump to any conclusions, I want to know more. Don't you? Or is it acceptable to condemn these officers without knowing the facts?

I suggest we all take a breath and think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Once we know all the facts, then perhaps we can condemn these officers, but first try to put yourself in their shoes (when we know the facts.) Given those facts, how would you have performed in their place? If your answer is I don't know or no better than them, then don't condemn them. If your answer is much better than them, maybe you need to reevaluate your thinking about your skill level. Or maybe not. Only you will know for sure.

As for me, I'm thankful I don't have to deal with the pressures of being required to pursue bad guys, especially at night, and put my life on the line every day. I'm also thankful there are young men who are still willing to volunteer to do that.

These two young men will have to deal with this the rest of their lives. The least I can do is hold off on condemning them until all the facts are known.

[texanjoker]

The 2nd link somebody posted said he put the gun down and picked it.back ip. It also said he pointed the gun at the officer. Im on my cell or i would look it up. If that is true there is more to this. Let the investigation take its course.

[VMI77]

I have refrained from commenting so far, but no longer. There seems to be an assumption that because these were rookie cops they must have made a mistake. We don't have the facts yet. It's far too early to speculate.

Here's what the article says.

According to Fort Worth police, the alarm call came just before 1 a.m. in the 400 block of North Havenwood Lane. But after arriving at the scene, officers became involved in a confrontation with a man armed with a gun who was across the street from where the alarm was going off.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

Feeling threatened, at least one officer fired at the man, who was later identified as Jerry Waller, police said. Waller was dead at the scene, in his own garage.

The article doesn't say what made them feel threatened. It also doesn't say Mr. Waller was in his garage when he was shot - only that he was dead in his garage.

Before I jump to any conclusions, I want to know more. Don't you? Or is it acceptable to condemn these officers without knowing the facts?

I suggest we all take a breath and think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Once we know all the facts, then perhaps we can condemn these officers, but first try to put yourself in their shoes (when we know the facts.) Given those facts, how would you have performed in their place? If your answer is I don't know or no better than them, then don't condemn them. If your answer is much better than them, maybe you need to reevaluate your thinking about your skill level. Or maybe not. Only you will know for sure.

As for me, I'm thankful I don't have to deal with the pressures of being required to pursue bad guys, especially at night, and put my life on the line every day. I'm also thankful there are young men who are still willing to volunteer to do that.

These two young men will have to deal with this the rest of their lives. The least I can do is hold off on condemning them until all the facts are known.

I'm not condemning the officers....I don't know what happened. And if they made a mistake it's possible we may never know because it appears the only other witness is dead. However, there is one fact that is not in question: they responded to a false burglar alarm to the wrong location and killed an old man on his own property. The notion that this old man pointed a gun at police knowing they were police is simply not credible. So, if he pointed a gun at them it is almost a certainty he didn't know they were police, which means they had not properly identified themselves. I highly doubt the police simply murdered him. However, the fact remains that the chain of events that led to killing this man were avoidable and it is simply not acceptable to have police trained or reacting in a way that leads to an innocent property owner being killed on his own property. What I'm saying is that the police culture is developing in a way that makes incidents like this inevitable and something needs to change.

[texanjoker]

I have refrained from commenting so far, but no longer. There seems to be an assumption that because these were rookie cops they must have made a mistake. We don't have the facts yet. It's far too early to speculate.

Here's what the article says.

According to Fort Worth police, the alarm call came just before 1 a.m. in the 400 block of North Havenwood Lane. But after arriving at the scene, officers became involved in a confrontation with a man armed with a gun who was across the street from where the alarm was going off.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

Feeling threatened, at least one officer fired at the man, who was later identified as Jerry Waller, police said. Waller was dead at the scene, in his own garage.

The article doesn't say what made them feel threatened. It also doesn't say Mr. Waller was in his garage when he was shot - only that he was dead in his garage.

Before I jump to any conclusions, I want to know more. Don't you? Or is it acceptable to condemn these officers without knowing the facts?

I suggest we all take a breath and think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Once we know all the facts, then perhaps we can condemn these officers, but first try to put yourself in their shoes (when we know the facts.) Given those facts, how would you have performed in their place? If your answer is I don't know or no better than them, then don't condemn them. If your answer is much better than them, maybe you need to reevaluate your thinking about your skill level. Or maybe not. Only you will know for sure.

As for me, I'm thankful I don't have to deal with the pressures of being required to pursue bad guys, especially at night, and put my life on the line every day. I'm also thankful there are young men who are still willing to volunteer to do that.

These two young men will have to deal with this the rest of their lives. The least I can do is hold off on condemning them until all the facts are known.

I'm not condemning the officers....I don't know what happened. And if they made a mistake it's possible we may never know because it appears the only other witness is dead. However, there is one fact that is not in question: they responded to a false burglar alarm to the wrong location and killed an old man on his own property. The notion that this old man pointed a gun at police knowing they were police is simply not credible. So, if he pointed a gun at them it is almost a certainty he didn't know they were police, which means they had not properly identified themselves. I highly doubt the police simply murdered him. However, the fact remains that the chain of events that led to killing this man were avoidable and it is simply not acceptable to have police trained or reacting in a way that leads to an innocent property owner being killed on his own property. What I'm saying is that the police culture is developing in a way that makes incidents like this inevitable and something needs to change.

LEO's wear a uniform to include patches and a badge to help ID themselves. There is no requirement to always ID oneself verbally before using deadly force if warranted by the specific event. That is no different then a CHL holder pulling out their gun and shooting somebody w/o warning.

Where is the blame for the person that set off the alarm and started this chain of events? Alarms are considered a burglary in progress and are treated as such. Had this person properly operated their alarm this would not have happened. Did the houses have easily identifiable address markings, what was the lighting like, ect. Things we do not know at this time. Like any other shooting, the investigation will take its course and in a few months we will learn more.

This is a general comment and not speaking about this incident. IMO the current culture of people wanting to force themselves upon police while carrying a gun is concerning to me. Common sense is being left out in some of these cases I read about and that will lead to more tragic incidents.

[carlson1]

I do not believe we can even come close to making a decision because not one of us knows the true facts. We are basing our statements on what the "media" says and we should know by now that the media is twisted. Over and over some have said and righteously so, "wait until the investigation is over."

As for as this statement my answer is REALLY?

Where is the blame for the person that set off the alarm and started this chain of events? Alarms are considered a burglary in progress and are treated as such. Had this person properly operated their alarm this would not have happened.

[Zencyl]

As for as this statement my answer is REALLY?

Where is the blame for the person that set off the alarm and started this chain of events? Alarms are considered a burglary in progress and are treated as such. Had this person properly operated their alarm this would not have happened.

I had the exact same thought.......really?

[Keith B]

I do not believe we can even come close to making a decision because not one of us knows the true facts. We are basing our statements on what the "media" says and we should know by now that the media is twisted. Over and over some have said and righteously so, "wait until the investigation is over."

As for as this statement my answer is REALLY?

Where is the blame for the person that set off the alarm and started this chain of events? Alarms are considered a burglary in progress and are treated as such. Had this person properly operated their alarm this would not have happened.

Handling of a residential standard burglar alarm should be treated as such; that is a residential burglar alarm sounding. We all know that 95% of these are false alarms. I accidentally set mine of the other morning because I got out of my normal routine. I know when I was a LEO we treated a standard alarm as an urgent response, but proceeded with the fact that a homeowner or business person may be the one that set it off and to expect to see them there. I know housekeepers that set them off, contractors doing work, etc.

Bottom line, if it is a panic alarm, it should be treated as such, but responding to a residential burglar alarm needs to be viewed totally different.

[VMI77]

I have refrained from commenting so far, but no longer. There seems to be an assumption that because these were rookie cops they must have made a mistake. We don't have the facts yet. It's far too early to speculate.

Here's what the article says.

According to Fort Worth police, the alarm call came just before 1 a.m. in the 400 block of North Havenwood Lane. But after arriving at the scene, officers became involved in a confrontation with a man armed with a gun who was across the street from where the alarm was going off.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

Feeling threatened, at least one officer fired at the man, who was later identified as Jerry Waller, police said. Waller was dead at the scene, in his own garage.

The article doesn't say what made them feel threatened. It also doesn't say Mr. Waller was in his garage when he was shot - only that he was dead in his garage.

Before I jump to any conclusions, I want to know more. Don't you? Or is it acceptable to condemn these officers without knowing the facts?

I suggest we all take a breath and think, there but for the grace of God go I.

Once we know all the facts, then perhaps we can condemn these officers, but first try to put yourself in their shoes (when we know the facts.) Given those facts, how would you have performed in their place? If your answer is I don't know or no better than them, then don't condemn them. If your answer is much better than them, maybe you need to reevaluate your thinking about your skill level. Or maybe not. Only you will know for sure.

As for me, I'm thankful I don't have to deal with the pressures of being required to pursue bad guys, especially at night, and put my life on the line every day. I'm also thankful there are young men who are still willing to volunteer to do that.

These two young men will have to deal with this the rest of their lives. The least I can do is hold off on condemning them until all the facts are known.

I'm not condemning the officers....I don't know what happened. And if they made a mistake it's possible we may never know because it appears the only other witness is dead. However, there is one fact that is not in question: they responded to a false burglar alarm to the wrong location and killed an old man on his own property. The notion that this old man pointed a gun at police knowing they were police is simply not credible. So, if he pointed a gun at them it is almost a certainty he didn't know they were police, which means they had not properly identified themselves. I highly doubt the police simply murdered him. However, the fact remains that the chain of events that led to killing this man were avoidable and it is simply not acceptable to have police trained or reacting in a way that leads to an innocent property owner being killed on his own property. What I'm saying is that the police culture is developing in a way that makes incidents like this inevitable and something needs to change.

LEO's wear a uniform to include patches and a badge to help ID themselves. There is no requirement to always ID oneself verbally before using deadly force if warranted by the specific event. That is no different then a CHL holder pulling out their gun and shooting somebody w/o warning.

Where is the blame for the person that set off the alarm and started this chain of events? Alarms are considered a burglary in progress and are treated as such. Had this person properly operated their alarm this would not have happened. Did the houses have easily identifiable address markings, what was the lighting like, ect. Things we do not know at this time. Like any other shooting, the investigation will take its course and in a few months we will learn more.

This is a general comment and not speaking about this incident. IMO the current culture of people wanting to force themselves upon police while carrying a gun is concerning to me. Common sense is being left out in some of these cases I read about and that will lead to more tragic incidents.

I haven't gone back through every one of your comments on incidents like this but from those I remember it sure seems like you want to place blame anywhere but on police. Please explain further what you mean by the "current culture of people wanting to force themselves upon police while carrying a gun?" Personally, I'm afraid of the police because they're the only group of people I can't defend myself against if they attack me. The police break into my house by mistake my dog is dead, and if they see me with a gun having woken up in the middle of the night thinking my home is being invaded, I'm dead, and possibly my wife. Officer safety you know. No one else in this country has this kind of license to kill. I don't have a magic phrase like "officer safety" to keep me out of prison. There is no "citizen safety." If a bad cop rapes a woman and she shoots him, SHE is going to prison. Any sane and relatively informed person knows that any contact with police while armed, especially if the weapon is visible, is a possible death sentence. That's not the way it was 40 years ago.

In this case, the old man didn't "force himself on police while carrying a gun." The police forced themselves on HIM. And sorry, no CHL owner gets to pull out a gun and shoot someone without warning without going to prison. If a CHL holder shot someone in the same or similar circumstances, his life would be over. We already know what the result of the "investigation" is going to be: sorry surviving family members, but the officers acted properly in accordance with department procedures. The chances it will lead to charges for the officers are about the same as you encountering a legitimate residential alarm.

When you say the officers don't have to identify themselves you're saying a citizens right to self-defense is ALWAYS subordinate to police, since in the many cases where it is impossible for a citizen to see that a potential threat is the police, such as at night with a flashlight in your face, or coming out of a deep sleep in the middle of the night with your door crashing in, a citizen has to take the risk that the unidentified threat is a good guy. The police on the other hand, can shoot and then say they felt threatened and it's, oops, so sorry. The citizen shoots and it is the police, he ends up dead or in prison. So much for serve and protect.

Finally, in this particular case we come to one of two possible conclusions if we assume good faith on the part of the officers: 1) the old man didn't know they were police and felt threatened; or 2) the old man was tired of living and decided to commit suicide by cop. Which of these two possibilities is the most likely? You're apparently OK with number one; I'm not, and I consider it a police culture problem.

[Keith B]

I haven't gone back through every one of your comments on incidents like this but from those I remember it sure seems like you want to place blame anywhere but on police. Please explain further what you mean by the "current culture of people wanting to force themselves upon police while carrying a gun?" Personally, I'm afraid of the police because they're the only group of people I can't defend myself against if they attack me. The police break into my house by mistake my dog is dead, and if they see me with a gun having woken up in the middle of the night thinking my home is being invaded, I'm dead, and possibly my wife. Officer safety you know. No one else in this country has this kind of license to kill. I don't have a magic phrase like "officer safety" to keep me out of prison. There is no "citizen safety." If a bad cop rapes a woman and she shoots him, SHE is going to prison. Any sane and relatively informed person knows that any contact with police while armed, especially if the weapon is visible, is a possible death sentence. That's not the way it was 40 years ago.

In this case, the old man didn't "force himself on police while carrying a gun." The police forced themselves on HIM. And sorry, no CHL owner gets to pull out a gun and shoot someone without warning without going to prison. If a CHL holder shot someone in the same or similar circumstances, his life would be over. We already know what the result of the "investigation" is going to be: sorry surviving family members, but the officers acted properly in accordance with department procedures. The chances it will lead to charges for the officers are about the same as you encountering a legitimate residential alarm.

When you say the officers don't have to identify themselves you're saying a citizens right to self-defense is ALWAYS subordinate to police, since in the many cases where it is impossible for a citizen to see that a potential threat is the police, such as at night with a flashlight in your face, or coming out of a deep sleep in the middle of the night with your door crashing in, a citizen has to take the risk that the unidentified threat is a good guy. The police on the other hand, can shoot and then say they felt threatened and it's, oops, so sorry. The citizen shoots and it is the police, he ends up dead or in prison. So much for serve and protect.

Finally, in this particular case we come to one of two possible conclusions if we assume good faith on the part of the officers: 1) the old man didn't know they were police and felt threatened; or 2) the old man was tired of living and decided to commit suicide by cop. Which of these two possibilities is the most likely? You're apparently OK with number one; I'm not, and I consider it a police culture problem.

OK guys, this is getting heated. Drop the 'You know what the outcome will be' statements. You do NOT know what will be coming out of this.

Everyone needs to stop jumping to conclusions and let the investigation proceed to determine what happened. Once that is in progress then we can comment on the proceedings, but until that time no one knows what really happened or who was right or wrong in this case.

If we can't stay civil and level headed in discussion the thread will be locked.