Uvalde School shooting

[srothstein]

4 minute edited video published of start to end.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/20 ... 370384007/

Never trust an edited video for anything. If they cannot release the whole thing without any changes, they are lying, no matter which side it is. This is true no matter who is doing the editing and for what reason.

[rtschl]

4 minute edited video published of start to end.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/20 ... 370384007/

Never trust an edited video for anything. If they cannot release the whole thing without any changes, they are lying, no matter which side it is. This is true no matter who is doing the editing and for what reason.

The mainstream media has a credibility problem and is not generally unbiased. The full unredacted video(s) need to be made available to the public.

DPS Director Steven McCraw was not happy it was released before the families got to see it. As someone most likely to have see all the videos, his further statement denouncing the "abject failure" of the police response is brutally strong statement.

[carlson1]

I believe this is the full video or maybe most of it. It is very disturbing and may I say disappointing as well. Embarrassing and mostly SAD.

Warning for content.

[jb2012]

I just don’t understand how someone can have sights on a person wearing all black, fired shots already, running towards a school, and can’t fire. I just don’t understand how multiple people stacked in a hallway run away from shots, presumably aimed toward innocent souls. This was the biggest failure in security and law enforcement I have seen to date, and I have seen many. So many compounding failure points that could have impeded or stopped the shooter, thus saving lives.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just don’t understand how someone can have sights on a person wearing all black, fired shots already, running towards a school, and can’t fire. I just don’t understand how multiple people stacked in a hallway run away from shots, presumably aimed toward innocent souls. This was the biggest failure in security and law enforcement I have seen to date, and I have seen many. So many compounding failure points that could have impeded or stopped the shooter, thus saving lives.

I feel we all need to realize that the vast majority of Police Officers don't have the intestinal fortitude we as citizens expect them to have. I am not even a little bit surprised by this video. It is a perfect example of why we can never count on cops to save us in a real emergency situation.

[Paladin]

4 minute edited video published of start to end.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/20 ... 370384007/

The video does show that the murder really didn't know how to drive. That's why the truck ended up in the ditch.

Video certainly backs up the ALERRT report and most of its conclusions.

[Paladin]

I just don’t understand how someone can have sights on a person wearing all black, fired shots already, running towards a school, and can’t fire. I just don’t understand how multiple people stacked in a hallway run away from shots, presumably aimed toward innocent souls. This was the biggest failure in security and law enforcement I have seen to date, and I have seen many. So many compounding failure points that could have impeded or stopped the shooter, thus saving lives.

I feel we all need to realize that the vast majority of Police Officers don't have the intestinal fortitude we as citizens expect them to have. I am not even a little bit surprised by this video. It is a perfect example of why we can never count on cops to save us in a real emergency situation.

Intestinal fortitude is one thing, but standing around waiting for kids to die would be one thing I could never do.

[philip964]

Stopping a Police Officer father from rescuing his injured daughter is another.

Uvalde cop seen checking his phone is HUSBAND of slain teacher

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Ramos.html


It is the media's fault now.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just don’t understand how someone can have sights on a person wearing all black, fired shots already, running towards a school, and can’t fire. I just don’t understand how multiple people stacked in a hallway run away from shots, presumably aimed toward innocent souls. This was the biggest failure in security and law enforcement I have seen to date, and I have seen many. So many compounding failure points that could have impeded or stopped the shooter, thus saving lives.

I feel we all need to realize that the vast majority of Police Officers don't have the intestinal fortitude we as citizens expect them to have. I am not even a little bit surprised by this video. It is a perfect example of why we can never count on cops to save us in a real emergency situation.

Intestinal fortitude is one thing, but standing around waiting for kids to die would be one thing I could never do.

I was trying not to just come right out and call them cowards. I am not even a cop and could never just hide in the hall like that.

[PriestTheRunner]

Video certainly backs up the ALERRT report and most of its conclusions.

For those who may want to view it: https://alerrt.org/r/31 ALERRT Report at that link.

I watched the video. From what I can tell (and yes I understand this is arm-chair QB'ing) the senior officer (presumably a sergeant) almost gets clocked at 7:43 or so on first entry. As he did not have the appropriate entry method or backup of teammates, he pulls back and everyone falls back with him. At that point the on-site officer's appear to go into decision paralysis and the near-miss of the leading officer (larger guy in green) is the primary cause of the shock and indecision.

I'm sure the experts have dug into this much more than this, but to the much less trained eye, that appears to be one of the root causes.

The first attempted entry was garbage with no assistance and no room clearing technique at all.

[srothstein]

Video certainly backs up the ALERRT report and most of its conclusions.

For those who may want to view it: https://alerrt.org/r/31 ALERRT Report at that link.

I watched the video. From what I can tell (and yes I understand this is arm-chair QB'ing) the senior officer (presumably a sergeant) almost gets clocked at 7:43 or so on first entry. As he did not have the appropriate entry method or backup of teammates, he pulls back and everyone falls back with him. At that point the on-site officer's appear to go into decision paralysis and the near-miss of the leading officer (larger guy in green) is the primary cause of the shock and indecision.

I'm sure the experts have dug into this much more than this, but to the much less trained eye, that appears to be one of the root causes.

The first attempted entry was garbage with no assistance and no room clearing technique at all.

I do not know how many of the investigations looked into this decision paralysis in this case. I had not heard it mentioned and I did not watch the video (due to it being edited by the media). I cannot say for sure that this happened because of what I am about to postulate, but it is something we should always consider.

Cops are, for better or worse, humans. And one known psychological problem for humans is that groups tend to act in concert with one another. It is sometimes called the bystander effect, where a group of bystanders waits and watches until one person decides to act, then the whole group kicks in to act too. It was first discussed in reference to the Kitty Genovese case, though it was later proven to be a false rumor about that. We know it happens when cops shoot, where one cop sees a threat and shoots so other cops also start shooting(1). In that case, it is generally called contagion shooting. We have seen it in crowds of protesters, where the crowd is peaceful but upset and then one person starts to vandalize something and it rapidly becomes a riot.

So, it would not surprise me that when the group leader reversed course, it threw the group into disarray and they waited for a leader to emerge and take action or give orders again. I am not excusing any of the police actions, nor does this justify it. It might help explain it from a psychological standpoint though.


Footnote (1): In 1976, I went through Army MP training. MPs at the time were almost always in two man cars. During one of our training sessions, the Drill Sergeants were telling us that if we were ever involved in a shooting, both officers better shoot. If not, either one was using unnecessary force or the other was derelict in his duty to assist the first officer. This training stuck with me enough that in 1991, when I was involved in a shooting in San Antonio, it ran through my mind afterwards and I mentioned it to the department psychologist I had to see. I pointed out that I did not recall ever making a decision to shoot and wondered if I really saw the threat or not? He convinced me it was irrelevant to my shooting based on the timing and sequence of events and my description of what I saw as I shot. But old training can stick with you and pop up at weird times.

[PriestTheRunner]

...
So, it would not surprise me that when the group leader reversed course, it threw the group into disarray and they waited for a leader to emerge and take action or give orders again. I am not excusing any of the police actions, nor does this justify it. It might help explain it from a psychological standpoint though.
...

So based on the video, I actually don't have any qualms about pulling back **momentarily** at that point. The ALERRT report talks several times about momentum and the necessity of action. (Page 14/15).

The primary recommendation tfrom that report (and my instinctive thought when watching the video) was to re-direct Team 2 (south hallway) from the hallway termination to the exterior windows, and utilize them as a diversionary force / suspect engagement while the main door breaching occurs.

The report states that it appears door 111 was not locked during the incident, which is why the suspect gained easy entry twice anyway. With the window diversion, they could have breached the room without tools. If the curtains or blinds were in the way, they would have needed a breaching tool to rake those clear effectively, but that made it on site at 12:08 or so. Still way earlier than 12:55.

From all appearances, everyone in that department was running on Pre-columbine (IE pre 1999) training nd had not gone through ALERRT. When the SWAT team showed up, they were never handed control.

Its a crap situation that was handled VERY poorly overall.

[03Lightningrocks]

Anyone remember the old saying about how cops run to the sound of gunfire while everybody else is running away from it. This video provides evidence that the old saying is a fairy tell now days. Cowardice in the line of duty is no excuse when children are being slaughtered. We will likely never know how many of those children bled out while those cops hid safely in the hallway. They signed up for the job. Then proved themselves cowards when it came to doing anything other than bullying citizens who lick their boots.

[Paladin]

Anyone remember the old saying about how cops run to the sound of gunfire while everybody else is running away from it. This video provides evidence that the old saying is a fairy tell now days. Cowardice in the line of duty is no excuse when children are being slaughtered. We will likely never know how many of those children bled out while those cops hid safely in the hallway. They signed up for the job. Then proved themselves cowards when it came to doing anything other than bullying citizens who lick their boots.

The ALERRT report and video are both very helpful in verifying what actually happened. I still have many questions in my mind. I am certain there are written procedures for these situations and training. Those procedures and training are to intervene immediately. What happened with that? Who all gave the order for the stand down? Chief Pete Arredondo was certainly responsible, but city PD seems to me to share responsibility. Did an officer really have the murderer in his sights and not take the shot? How did the murderer who could not drive and worked at Wendy's acquire his weapons? Who took him to zero and practice with his weapons? Was he specifically recruited to do this horrific thing?

Why was law enforcement incompetence and inadequate training seemingly the norm? How and why were so many police officers cowed into doing nothing? These issues need to be uncovered and addressed.

[K.Mooneyham]

Anyone remember the old saying about how cops run to the sound of gunfire while everybody else is running away from it. This video provides evidence that the old saying is a fairy tell now days. Cowardice in the line of duty is no excuse when children are being slaughtered. We will likely never know how many of those children bled out while those cops hid safely in the hallway. They signed up for the job. Then proved themselves cowards when it came to doing anything other than bullying citizens who lick their boots.

The ALERRT report and video are both very helpful in verifying what actually happened. I still have many questions in my mind. I am certain there are written procedures for these situations and training. Those procedures and training are to intervene immediately. What happened with that? Who all gave the order for the stand down? Chief Pete Arredondo was certainly responsible, but city PD seems to me to share responsibility. Did an officer really have the murderer in his sights and not take the shot? How did the murderer who could not drive and worked at Wendy's acquire his weapons? Who took him to zero and practice with his weapons? Was he specifically recruited to do this horrific thing?

Why was law enforcement incompetence and inadequate training seemingly the norm? How and why were so many police officers cowed into doing nothing? These issues need to be uncovered and addressed.

And I want to know the real answers to those questions, as do many others.