Dangerous Traffic Stop - Minnesota Police Officer

[Excaliber]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

[Liberty]

Did the officer make a mistake or screw up? I think so.
Was the officer acting maliciously? or reckless? or negligent? I don't think so.
should the officer spend time in prison? I don't think so.
Should the officer remain an LEO? No he has displayed poor judgement.
Is he still an LEO. No..

This whole case has been handled well, as far as I can tell. Just because some one screws up doesn't mean we should make a criminal out of him, nor does it mean we want him to continue patrolling out streets.

[tx85]

If Castile had been cited three times for having MJ in his car, why hadn't the State revoked his license if the State felt it was so illegal?

Revoked isn't applicable because his permit was granted in 2015, which was after the citations. Presumably they didn't know at the time that he was lying on his application because they didn't have access to the citations for whatever reason. Or perhaps they were aware of the citations (with the last one being from 2008) but assumed that his "no" answer on the application meant that he had stopped using illegal drugs and thus regained his right to possess firearms. Castile's girlfriend testified at the trial that they smoked marijuana daily and had done so for years - which means that Castile continued to be an unlawful drug user and lied on his application in 2015. If he hadn't lied, his application would have been denied.

That you used the words "felt" and "so" is interesting. Are you implying that it isn't illegal for marijuana users to possess guns, despite a clear statute and every Circuit Court so far upholding the statute as constitutional?

This illegal carry because of Federsl law is a red herring as the State was OK with him possessing a license ( States rights you know).

Even if the state permit hadn't been fraudulently obtained, it would only have legalized his carry under state law. Under federal law, it was illegal for him to simply possess firearms. Per the Constitution, a state law cannot override federal law (Supremacy Clause).

For the record, I think marijuana prohibition is as stupid and counter-productive as alcohol prohibition was. However, until such time that marijuana is delisted as a controlled substance at the federal level, it is a felony for marijuana users to possess guns. A felony conviction means loss of gun rights for life. Don't be like this guy:

Matthew Yancey pleaded guilty to possessing a firearm as an unlawful user of marijuana but reserved the right to argue on appeal that the offense of conviction, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(3), violates the Second Amendment as interpreted in District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S.Ct. 2783 (2008). We conclude that the statute is constitutional and affirm Yancey's conviction.

[steveincowtown]

I've watched all the videos multiple times and what I see is nothing short of manslaughter and poor discipline by the LEO when he started to shoot.

Just my opinion....

[WTR]

I've watched all the videos multiple times and what I see is nothing short of manslaughter and poor discipline by the LEO when he started to shoot.

Just my opinion....

I would say involuntary manslaughter at the very least with the caveat he never be allowed to work any job which envolves a weapon. He has already displayed the lack of judgement to handle a firearm.

[Charles L. Cotton]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

Excellent post.

Chas.

[bblhd672]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

Excellent post.

Chas.

My wallet is in my hands on top of the steering wheel by the time the officer gets to the window.

[tomneal]

Put me as a Plus 1 on wallet out.
I don't get stopped very often. When I have, the officer spent minutes not seconds getting to the window to chat. In that length of time, I have Licenses (TDL & CHL), and proof of insurance in my hand. My hands on the wheel. Windows open... There was plenty of time to accomplish those tasks and to get a little board.

One of the things that struck me on Philando Castile was in the early articles, he had been pulled over more times in 18 months before he died, than I have in my whole life. Including at least once by the officer that shot and killed him. With all the questions about the individual officer. Training, attitude, ... What was going on with the Philando Castile (his car or his driving) and/or local police policies that caused that many interactions?

[WTR]

Put me as a Plus 1 on wallet out.
I don't get stopped very often. When I have, the officer spent minutes not seconds getting to the window to chat. In that length of time, I have Licenses (TDL & CHL), and proof of insurance in my hand. My hands on the wheel. Windows open... There was plenty of time to accomplish those tasks and to get a little board.

One of the things that struck me on Philando Castile was in the early articles, he had been pulled over more times in 18 months before he died, than I have in my whole life. Including at least once by the officer that shot and killed him. With all the questions about the individual officer. Training, attitude, ... What was going on with the Philando Castile (his car or his driving) and/or local police policies that caused that many interactions?

How is the number of times he was stopped relevant to this incident? Each event should be independent of each other .

[Excaliber]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

Excellent post.

Chas.

My wallet is in my hands on top of the steering wheel by the time the officer gets to the window.

There are three reasons I don't recommend having the wallet out before the officer gets to the window:

1. Not all officers on the street are highly experienced professionals with good judgment honed by years of encountering strange situations and managing them correctly. I build my tactics around the worst case scenario - a nervous rookie with very little experience and a police academy textbook "can I make a case for shooting him" instead of a "is it absolutely necessary to shoot him" approach to deadly force decisions.

2. In order to get the wallet out, you need to make movements that could easily appear as attempts to either hide something or reach for a weapon to an officer who will be watching activity in the car very closely as he pulls you over and approaches the vehicle. This will increase the pucker factor for him and also increase his level of readiness for a defensive response.

2. Wallets and cell phones have been mistaken for guns many times with tragic results. The low light situation of an after dark traffic stop increases the likelihood that this could happen, but it could happen in daylight as well.

[1911 10MM]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

Excellent post.

Chas.

My wallet is in my hands on top of the steering wheel by the time the officer gets to the window.

Same here. My wallet does not ride in my pocket when I get behind the wheel. It is in the center console or somewhere else but never in my pocket.

[tx85]

Leftist journalists are falling over themselves to claim that the NRA is declining to comment on the Castile verdict because of his race. This dishonest narrative is easily disproven: the NRA never commented on the police killing of concealed carrier Erik B. Scott (Costco Las Vegas incident). Co-incidentally, these leftists never commented on that case either (Scott was white).

[KLB]

An interesting take on Philando Castille and how to interact with police while carrying:

http://habakkuk21.blogspot.com/2017/06/ ... aring.html

[rtschl]

The biggest issue here appears to be a miscommunication between the officer and the driver. Here is my take:

The officer gave two commands - to produce the license and not to reach for the gun. He didn't know where either of those items was located in the vehicle. The driver understood and believed he was complying because he reached for his driver's license, which in this case was apparently near his gun. When the officer observed the gun, he believed the driver was attempting to draw it and he responded with (an awful lot of) deadly force.

Here are my suggested takeaways to avoid a similar situation:

1. Do not keep identification items on the same side where the gun is holstered.
2. When advising the officer you are armed, tell him where the gun is and where the identification is.
3. Do not reach for ID with the hand that's on the same side as the gun
4. Keep hands on the steering wheel and do not move until you are certain that both you and the officer have the same understanding of what you are about to do.

My response to an officer's request for my driver's license is:

With both hands on the steering wheel, engine off, keys on the dash, and if after dark with interior light on:

"Out of respect for your safety, I want you to know that I am lawfully carrying a handgun in a belt holster behind my right hip. My identification is in my left rear pocket. How would you like me to proceed?"

When I am sure I understand his response, I move only the left hand slowly to withdraw my wallet and I take the license out of it with hands held high in full view at steering wheel level.

I've never had any issues when following this practice.

Excellent post.

Chas.

My wallet is in my hands on top of the steering wheel by the time the officer gets to the window.

There are three reasons I don't recommend having the wallet out before the officer gets to the window:

1. Not all officers on the street are highly experienced professionals with good judgment honed by years of encountering strange situations and managing them correctly. I build my tactics around the worst case scenario - a nervous rookie with very little experience and a police academy textbook "can I make a case for shooting him" instead of a "is it absolutely necessary to shoot him" approach to deadly force decisions.

2. In order to get the wallet out, you need to make movements that could easily appear as attempts to either hide something or reach for a weapon to an officer who will be watching activity in the car very closely as he pulls you over and approaches the vehicle. This will increase the pucker factor for him and also increase his level of readiness for a defensive response.

2. Wallets and cell phones have been mistaken for guns many times with tragic results. The low light situation of an after dark traffic stop increases the likelihood that this could happen, but it could happen in daylight as well.

Both the original and followup posts by Excaliber are superb - must be because I agree.

I have not been stopped by an officer since I have had my CHL/LTC. But it is my intention to not be moving about the inside of the vehicle before the officer approaches as all he can see is the guy he pulled over moving around. I too keep my licenses in separate ID wallet - opposite side of gun side but I've been doing that long before I carried. If I didn't have my ID in my pocket, I'd probably forget it every time I got out of my car. I've done that with my phone more than a few times.

[tomneal]

postby WTR » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:09 am
How is the number of times he was stopped relevant to this incident? Each event should be independent of each other .

I don't think it is irrelevant to this incident.

I wonder if everyone in the area is pulled over that often? If so, is it possible that local law enforcement is doing too much traffic enforcement? Those decisions are made by the chief LEO and/or the mayor.

If it was only Castile, why?

Is it something I can avoid.