Houston McDonald's CHL robbed but shoots well

[PhillRoath]

Here's one other thing to consider, for those of us who think that the hassles of shooting would outweigh the decision not to shoot:

The BG's had the guy's wallet (and his ID, drivers license, which shows his address), and his car keys (which almost certainly had his house/apartment keys attached), and the GG was now a pedestrian so he could not secure his residence against folks who not only had the means, but probably the ability to burglar his house after robbing him at gunpoint.

That much is a fact - here comes the What If's:

Who's back at the house? Wife, child, multiple children? What kinds of things would a guy have in a house that the BG's could get quickly (remember, they now know where he lives and have his keys)?

In this case, it's not just immediate effects that should be considered. Did this enter into his mind when he made the completely legal decision to shoot? Who knows, but I do know that it's one of the things I would be thinking about were I in his position.

Final point: jmra, if I remember correctly, you're not really a fan of the CHL insurance schemes... well, the reason I pay the [Pre-paid legal service] insurance is to help take care of some of the 'hassles' in case I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself or others. Nuff said.

This also (along with the previous post) is always in my mind. I don't want them having my home information. I also have [Pre-paid legal service] just in case I need a lawyer fast.

[jmra]

Final point: jmra, (IIRC)... the reason I pay the [Pre-paid legal service] insurance is to help take care of some of the 'hassles' in case I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself or others. Nuff said.

I hope you never have to use it. I for one am not putting my future in the hands of these people.

Probably didn't explain myself very well here.
I don't care for these legal plans and don't use them for the very same reason I won't subscribe to or use a medical insurance plan that does not allow me to select my own doctor. If I am to under go a surgical procedure I want the best doctor I can find doing that procedure. I sure don't want some doc that is still wet behind the ears.
The same applies if I need a lawyer. I'm not putting my freedom and my livelihood in the hands of a lawyer I've never met and didn't select. Again, everyone has to decide these things for themselves. Our comfort levels are simply at different levels in this particular area. I don't fault you for your decision, its just not the route I chose to take.

[cb1000rider]

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

That's pretty extreme. I agree with you that it is possible. However, if I wanted your address, all I need is your name or your license plate number. And if I'm willing to do armed robbery is having a lock on the door (that I now have keys to) going to make all the difference between doing it and not doing it?

How much money can you extract from a debit card? Probably whatever your daily max is.

I dunno.. I just don't think it's very likely. I agree with you that it is possible and if you had those immediate lines of thinking I'd understand the "shoot" decision, but it's not for me. I'd still worry about going bankrupt over some BG's mother suing me over excessive use of force or some other claim that an attorney would take on contingency (no cost to the BGs mom). Just invoking the legal process is punitive in terms of cost, so shooting is an absolute last resort for me.

[cb1000rider]

I don't care for these legal plans and don't use them for the very same reason I won't subscribe to or use a medical insurance plan that does not allow me to select my own doctor. If I am to under go a surgical procedure I want the best doctor I can find doing that procedure. I sure don't want some doc that is still wet behind the ears.

That's a good point. My reason for not caring for [pre-paid legal]: They have never provided any references to actual court cases that they've defended. Ask them, they say the information is private, but they're defending X cases currently.
I understand privacy in many situations, however I'm sure that they could find a client who is willing to allow posting of his/her legal particulars. They won't tell you what attorneys are in their network. You wouldn't go to a pediatrician for heart surgery so why would you go to a lawyer who isn't specialized if you're in trouble?

I belong to a professional organization for pilots. There is a similar service for pilots. That service has some very public results and very public ongoing litigation. That's a service that I trust a bit more than [pre-paid legal].

[Dave2]

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

That's pretty extreme. I agree with you that it is possible. However, if I wanted your address, all I need is your name or your license plate number. And if I'm willing to do armed robbery is having a lock on the door (that I now have keys to) going to make all the difference between doing it and not doing it?

Depends... the BG knows you're not home and no widows or doors will have to be broken to get in. If I were said BG, there's a fair chance I'd at least drive by to see if you had a security system.

License plate lookups leave a paper trail (unless the website doesn't keep any logs at all), and name lookups probably have many of duplicates. It has crossed my mind that I might be putting more thought into this than the average thug, so maybe those drawbacks wouldn't stop them.

[gigag04]

Turns out these guys are from my old city and I have dealt with and arrested them both. Both violent, crack dealing histories. Just got all the texts today from my old coworkers...

Seems like a good shoot IMHO.

[mojo84]

Turns out these guys are from my old city and I have dealt with and arrested them both. Both violent, crack dealing histories. Just got all the texts today from my old coworkers...

Seems like a good shoot IMHO.

Just another example of just how small a world we live in. It also makes me wonder just what percentage of the population is actually the committing the majority the crimes that occur.

[jmra]

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

That's pretty extreme. I agree with you that it is possible. However, if I wanted your address, all I need is your name or your license plate number. And if I'm willing to do armed robbery is having a lock on the door (that I now have keys to) going to make all the difference between doing it and not doing it?

How much money can you extract from a debit card? Probably whatever your daily max is.

I dunno.. I just don't think it's very likely. I agree with you that it is possible and if you had those immediate lines of thinking I'd understand the "shoot" decision, but it's not for me. I'd still worry about going bankrupt over some BG's mother suing me over excessive use of force or some other claim that an attorney would take on contingency (no cost to the BGs mom). Just invoking the legal process is punitive in terms of cost, so shooting is an absolute last resort for me.

Just to clear up any confusion, that is not my post. That was posted by someone responding to one of my posts.
I do agree 100% with your response though.

[AlaskanInTexas]

Off topic, but I wish I could be in the room when the survivor's public defender explains the felony murder rule to him.

[philip964]

Turns out these guys are from my old city and I have dealt with and arrested them both. Both violent, crack dealing histories. Just got all the texts today from my old coworkers...

Seems like a good shoot IMHO.

Just another example of just how small a world we live in. It also makes me wonder just what percentage of the population is actually the committing the majority the crimes that occur.

I've always sort of thought that 1% of the population, spoils it for the rest of us. Imagine a world with out crime. Whirled Peas.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

If I am robbed of wallet and truck:

1. Insurance will likely only pay current value rather than replacement. Not the same as getting a new one.
2. I have other stuff in my truck that I would prefer not to lose.
3. I would need to replace my DL and CHL and credit cards and ATM card.
4. I would also need to cancel my credit cards and prepare to be a victim of identity theft.

I am sure there are more. Just pointing out there is a heck of a lot more to dealing with theft than just calling your insurance agent.

but not nearly the aggregation this guy will end up going through.

If they have his vehicle, they probably have his insurance card. If they have his insurance card they have his address. If they have his vehicle keys they probably have his house key. You do the math. Killing the driver is cheaper than having armed felons come to my house while I am stranded at some McDonald and my wife and child are at home.

[jmra]

If I am robbed of wallet and truck:

1. Insurance will likely only pay current value rather than replacement. Not the same as getting a new one.
2. I have other stuff in my truck that I would prefer not to lose.
3. I would need to replace my DL and CHL and credit cards and ATM card.
4. I would also need to cancel my credit cards and prepare to be a victim of identity theft.

I am sure there are more. Just pointing out there is a heck of a lot more to dealing with theft than just calling your insurance agent.

but not nearly the aggregation this guy will end up going through.

If they have his vehicle, they probably have his insurance card. If they have his insurance card they have his address. If they have his vehicle keys they probably have his house key. You do the math. Killing the driver is cheaper than having armed felons come to my house while I am stranded at some McDonald and my wife and child are at home.

If they go to my house and my wife and kids are home, the crooks are going to wish I had shot them.
The police in this case interviewed a number of witnesses. Even if the crooks took my phone, there is plenty of time to borrow a phone and warn anyone at home.
So, see how many documented instances of your scenario you can find. I bet you have a better chance of winning the lottery than you do of this happening to you.
We can play what ifs all day long, when push comes to shove we all have to do what we feel is the right thing at the right time.

[Jumping Frog]

If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

People should also keep in mind the numerous reaction time studies made by the Force Science Institute and other law-enforcement focused research groups that have scientifically proven in statistically valid studies that a BG running away can turn and shoot back before a law enforcement officer aiming a gun at them can respond. Under almost any scenario, action consistently beats reaction. With drive by and other senseless shootings literally commonplace, I am not going to entrust my well-being to a proven, violent, armed felon. If I can legally shoot before he does, I want my action to beat his reaction, not the other way around.

As far as the "$10,000 in legal fees" argument goes, there can be no defense attorney present in a Grand Jury proceeding. So for a "good shoot" that is cleared by the Grand Jury, it is hard for me to see how you get past some initial consult billing. The attorney is going to say, "keep your mouth shut". Certainly, if charges are brought, actual defense costs mount quickly. But in this instance, the police have already indicated they do not expect charges to be brought and the Grand Jury would seem like a formality.

There are also costs to consider on the other side of the coin. I've heard from Dave Ramsey-type people that the average identity theft incident creates about 600 hours of labor on my part to clean my identity theft issues. Even if that estimate is high, there are real costs associated with letting someone drive away with one's wallet.

[jmra]

If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

People should also keep in mind the numerous reaction time studies made by the Force Science Institute and other law-enforcement focused research groups that have scientifically proven in statistically valid studies that a BG running away can turn and shoot back before a law enforcement officer aiming a gun at them can respond. Under almost any scenario, action consistently beats reaction. With drive by and other senseless shootings literally commonplace, I am not going to entrust my well-being to a proven, violent, armed felon. If I can legally shoot before he does, I want my action to beat his reaction, not the other way around.

As far as the "$10,000 in legal fees" argument goes, there can be no defense attorney present in a Grand Jury proceeding. So for a "good shoot" that is cleared by the Grand Jury, it is hard for me to see how you get past some initial consult billing. The attorney is going to say, "keep your mouth shut". Certainly, if charges are brought, actual defense costs mount quickly. But in this instance, the police have already indicated they do not expect charges to be brought and the Grand Jury would seem like a formality.

There are also costs to consider on the other side of the coin. I've heard from Dave Ramsey-type people that the average identity theft incident creates about 600 hours of labor on my part to clean my identity theft issues. Even if that estimate is high, there are real costs associated with letting someone drive away with one's wallet.

And if you miss, or you don't, and your bullet continues to travel until it lodges in the body of the person across the street that you couldn't see and that person dies?
If I have other options that will reasonably ensure my safety, I'm not firing to recover property. There is simply too many things (that are just as likely to happen as any of the other "what ifs" people have floated in this thread) that can go badly wrong that could not only greatly affect my livelihood but also my freedom.
I respect the decision the victim made. He was there, I was not. If I were in his shoes and had all the information he had (which none of us do) I may well have made the same decision. The one time I have faced armed BGs I allowed them to flee and I believe with all my heart that I did the right thing.

[esxmarkc]

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

That's pretty extreme. I agree with you that it is possible. However, if I wanted your address, all I need is your name or your license plate number. And if I'm willing to do armed robbery is having a lock on the door (that I now have keys to) going to make all the difference between doing it and not doing it?

How much money can you extract from a debit card? Probably whatever your daily max is.

I dunno.. I just don't think it's very likely. I agree with you that it is possible and if you had those immediate lines of thinking I'd understand the "shoot" decision, but it's not for me. I'd still worry about going bankrupt over some BG's mother suing me over excessive use of force or some other claim that an attorney would take on contingency (no cost to the BGs mom). Just invoking the legal process is punitive in terms of cost, so shooting is an absolute last resort for me.

You think is't extreme? How is it any more extreme than this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_ ... on_murders" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, if I wanted your address.....

This isn't about the logic of the criminal mind. It's about the LACK of logic and an unpredictability of the human predators that are out there. The story I cited is a perfect example that started out as a simple home burglary and escalated into a horror story. Don't bother trying to apply some sort of logical thought process to the drug fueled predator.

How much money can you extract from a debit card? Probably whatever your daily max is.

I could care less about the money. I care about the process and tactics which they may apply to get at it. From the story I posted "Hawke-Petit had indicated the assailants were "being nice", and she believed they only wanted money" This poor lady made the gave mistake in thinking exactly as you are thinking: she tried to apply logic to their behavior.

If you have these armed animals standing in front of you making demands and you are worried about going bankrupt over some BG's mother suing you over excessive use of force then you can limit your liability in such situations bey leaving your handgun safely at home. Otherwise they are just as likely to take it off you and use it against you or someone else. In all honesty I'm really surprised that didn't happen to the shooter in this story.