Houston McDonald's CHL robbed but shoots well

[jmra]

If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

I believe everyone has to make that decision based on the circumstances and the information at hand when they are confronted with the situation. As stated before, I have faced a situation where I would have been justified in pulling the trigger, but I did not feel that was my only option. That was a decision I made and I'm thankful I chose he way I did.

[jmra]

I think I need to clear something up. Several people seem to think that my decision of shoot or not to shoot is based soley of levels of inconvienance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I did state that I probably would not shoot someone soley for the purpose of recovering property. I stand by that statement.
I have never stated that I would jeopardize my life by not taking appropriate action if I believed my life or my well being is in danger.
As far as someone having my wallet and showing up at my house before I or the police can get there, God help them if my wife is home.

[JALLEN]

Here's one other thing to consider, for those of us who think that the hassles of shooting would outweigh the decision not to shoot:

The BG's had the guy's wallet (and his ID, drivers license, which shows his address), and his car keys (which almost certainly had his house/apartment keys attached), and the GG was now a pedestrian so he could not secure his residence against folks who not only had the means, but probably the ability to burglar his house after robbing him at gunpoint.

and worse, now he's standing there with a loaded gun and no CHL or D/L in his possession, a common criminal.

[esxmarkc]

My thinking;
They are in my car leaving, I'm waving adios.
Why? Because the deductible on my car is a whole lot less than what I'm going to spend on legal fees (both criminal and civil).
Think about it. Even if charges aren't filed you have to believe that the guy is going to want some kind of legal representation to make sure all the Ts are crossed and all the Is are dotted. And there will be a civil suit, even though without charges it should get dismissed, there will still be expenses.
Not to mention the fact that I'm not going to want my family riding around in a car a guy bled out in. And there will still be expense (insurance deductibles) in repairs to the vehicle (probably expensive when you factor in damage and hazmat clean up).
Then there is the whole psychological aspect of taking a life...
Yep, you can have it.

Then you're not thinking deep enough.

As they asked for my keys and my wallet and my hand reached around for my wallet it would then be a mere 2 inches away from the handle containing 11 rounds of really nasty .40 cal ammo.

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

I DON'T KNOW what these thugs are thinking or are even capable of. WHAT I DO KNOW is that with some degree of luck I can take control of the situation and I can END it all here. I am thinking that whether I lay in a pool of my own blood and spent brass or I stand triumphant I will end it here - legal fees and deductibles be dammed. My family will be safe. I would have to thank my blessings of how lucky it is to be me in this situation instead of my wife or daughters dropping off the DVD.

So the point where they are in my car leaving and I'm waving adios is never happening. You'd have to rewind it back to the moment before they are in my car and they are standing there in front of me and they have now given me an excuse to reach behind me for my wallet.

So.... My thinking;
Is 11 rounds going to do the job? Who should I concentrate on first? Where is my cover? Is the getaway driver going to bolt - or is he a threat? Remember how to clear a jam. My extra mag is in the door pocket. Remember what my instructor taught me: fight like a trapped animal to because my family is counting on me.


ETA:

My Apologies jmra. I was composing this while you posted - and others posted similar thoughts to mine. I get your point and agree.

So how about this... I'd be thinking:

IF ONLY I'D KEPT MY NETFLIX SUBSCRIPTION NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!!

[cb1000rider]

I think it is really sad that so many "good men" don't want to be inconvenienced by the ramifications of standing up for what is right.

Thank our laws and civil legal system. It's really not personal inconvenience. It's about what would happen to my family if our financial security was taken away merely by the process of a civil action. More than that, in the off chance that I was criminally charged, it impacts my ability to work and provide for my family.

It's not about inconvenience at all. It's about self protection and family preservation just as much as carrying a firearm is about self protection.

[Purplehood]

I think it is really sad that so many "good men" don't want to be inconvenienced by the ramifications of standing up for what is right.

My concept of 'what is right' may differ from yours... I stand up for a lot of things. I also know when to back-off, and am not afraid to do so despite what someone else may think of me for doing so.

[Robert*PPS]

There are two issues here and they are being lumped together, when IMHO they should not be. First is, "is it legal to shoot." Obviously the law is clear that you can, but you still risk $$$$ and time if a prosecutor decides to go after you. The second is, "should you shoot." That is a moral decision on the part of the individual. Two camps on that. Those that would and those that would not. I'm in the latter camp unless I feel I am at grave risk of death or serious injury, and only firing my handgun will save me. Only the individual in this case knows why he decided to shoot.

Bingo....that's it.

[Eljefe007]

I made a list of of items/things/people on when to use deadly force. It's a short list. Here goes . . . to defend myself, my wife, & my family. That's it.

The moment I got my CHL, I've run through different scenarios of when I will use deadly force, that is not one of them. But that's me and for others, it's going to be their call and consequences to deal with.


I saw a lot of folks here mention about civil case if the guys is not criminal prosecuted. Well he can't per Texas Statutes - Section 83.001: CIVIL IMMUNITY: A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.


A little update on the case.


http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... cmpid=hpts

[Eljefe007]

My thinking;


Then you're not thinking deep enough.

WHAT I DO KNOW is that with some degree of luck I can take control of the situation and I can END it all here.

If you think that the situation ends here, well since we are on a hypothetical situation, what would you do if the family of the dead guy decides to go after you.

How, you might ask. Well, in this case, the media was smart enough to show the GG's gold Pontiac's license plate - DD5 C_3_ . I even know where the GG lives now with a quick search.

[jmra]

My thinking;
They are in my car leaving, I'm waving adios.
Why? Because the deductible on my car is a whole lot less than what I'm going to spend on legal fees (both criminal and civil).
Think about it. Even if charges aren't filed you have to believe that the guy is going to want some kind of legal representation to make sure all the Ts are crossed and all the Is are dotted. And there will be a civil suit, even though without charges it should get dismissed, there will still be expenses.
Not to mention the fact that I'm not going to want my family riding around in a car a guy bled out in. And there will still be expense (insurance deductibles) in repairs to the vehicle (probably expensive when you factor in damage and hazmat clean up).
Then there is the whole psychological aspect of taking a life...
Yep, you can have it.

Then you're not thinking deep enough.

As they asked for my keys and my wallet and my hand reached around for my wallet it would then be a mere 2 inches away from the handle containing 11 rounds of really nasty .40 cal ammo.

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

I DON'T KNOW what these thugs are thinking or are even capable of. WHAT I DO KNOW is that with some degree of luck I can take control of the situation and I can END it all here. I am thinking that whether I lay in a pool of my own blood and spent brass or I stand triumphant I will end it here - legal fees and deductibles be dammed. My family will be safe. I would have to thank my blessings of how lucky it is to be me in this situation instead of my wife or daughters dropping off the DVD.

So the point where they are in my car leaving and I'm waving adios is never happening. You'd have to rewind it back to the moment before they are in my car and they are standing there in front of me and they have now given me an excuse to reach behind me for my wallet.

So.... My thinking;
Is 11 rounds going to do the job? Who should I concentrate on first? Where is my cover? Is the getaway driver going to bolt - or is he a threat? Remember how to clear a jam. My extra mag is in the door pocket. Remember what my instructor taught me: fight like a trapped animal to because my family is counting on me.


ETA:

My Apologies jmra. I was composing this while you posted - and others posted similar thoughts to mine. I get your point and agree.

So how about this... I'd be thinking:

IF ONLY I'D KEPT MY NETFLIX SUBSCRIPTION NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!!

In this situation, right or wrong, I doubt I ever would have gotten to the "BGs leaving in my car" part. I probably would have attempted some kind of distraction and made a move toward my weapon.
Of course I also make every effort to avoid putting myself in those positions to begin with. On the rare occasions that I would visit an ATM or other type of machine at night, I would drive a little further to find an indoor one (like Walmart).
This is also the reason I chose not to live any closer than I do to a heavily populated area. I'm not isolated from the criminal element but the crime rate (especially when looking at violent crime) is much less of a concern.

[anygunanywhere]

If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't.

The winner.

Anygunanywhere

[RPBrown]

I think we need need a map APP to show where all these Houston incidents are as it seems we read about them a LOT.... I don't want to go to those areas.

From Conroe to Galveston

[bdickens]

I think it is really sad that so many "good men" don't want to be inconvenienced by the ramifications of standing up for what is right.

Thank our laws and civil legal system. It's really not personal inconvenience. It's about what would happen to my family if our financial security was taken away merely by the process of a civil action. More than that, in the off chance that I was criminally charged, it impacts my ability to work and provide for my family.

It's not about inconvenience at all. It's about self protection and family preservation just as much as carrying a firearm is about self protection.

I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

[Maxwell]

I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

I pray I never have to cross that bridge...

[PhillRoath]

If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

Well said.