Over-policing plus justified fear of impersonators

[EEllis]

First that isn't how she stated it and what car on this planet has to be running to roll down the windows?

Almost every one of them, unless it has manual windows. The ignition has to be in the "on" or "run" position for the power windows to operate on every vehicle I know of, unless it has been running and just shut off, in which case, many will allow you to operate accessory functions, such as stereo, PW, PSeat until such time as the door is opened. Before you ask, my expertise comes courtesy of 40+ years in the business.

What business? Because while I agree the key may need to be in run it doesn't have to be started and as a matter of fact doesn't start in run. Every car I've had you turn you key past run to start then it goes back to run. No need to start your car at all. No mind you I haven't any fancy foreign jobs just regular non luxury cars but still.

[EEllis]

[That's absurd and unrealistic. IMHO

Not to pick on just you, ( I often qualify)...but "IMHO" has to be the most out of place abbreviation used on any forum....but certainly, in your case, the "H" just doesn't fit!

You may be right but what should I change the H to and would people get it. IMEO? IMCO? IMIO?

[anygunanywhere]

[That's absurd and unrealistic. IMHO

Not to pick on just you, ( I often qualify)...but "IMHO" has to be the most out of place abbreviation used on any forum....but certainly, in your case, the "H" just doesn't fit!

You may be right but what should I change the H to and would people get it. IMEO? IMCO? IMIO?

IMTWOUOWIODLEOAWNCTEWTNIO

Anygunanywhere

[Pawpaw]

First that isn't how she stated it and what car on this planet has to be running to roll down the windows?

Almost every one of them, unless it has manual windows. The ignition has to be in the "on" or "run" position for the power windows to operate on every vehicle I know of, unless it has been running and just shut off, in which case, many will allow you to operate accessory functions, such as stereo, PW, PSeat until such time as the door is opened. Before you ask, my expertise comes courtesy of 40+ years in the business.

What business? Because while I agree the key may need to be in run it doesn't have to be started and as a matter of fact doesn't start in run. Every car I've had you turn you key past run to start then it goes back to run. No need to start your car at all. No mind you I haven't any fancy foreign jobs just regular non luxury cars but still.

Not everyone understands exactly how these things work. Here's an example:

A couple of weeks ago, I was out in a store with my 17-year-old granddaughter. She wanted to go sit in the truck while I waited in line and paid for our purchases. I gave her the keys to my truck and told her to start the engine. As I'm sure you can understand, I did that so the A/C would cool off the truck and she wouldn't have to sit in the sweltering heat.

When I came out, the first thing I noticed was that my truck's diesel engine wasn't running. After putting the bags in the back, I got in the truck and asked her why she didn't start it, like I said. She told me she just turned the key on because all she wanted was the air conditioning. When I explained that the A/C wouldn't work unless the engine was running, she claimed it was working just fine (I guess because the blower was moving air). She even claimed her mother's (my daughter) car worked that way.

When we got home, I told my daughter the story and she started to get onto my granddaughter because, "running the A/C without starting the engine will run the battery down." I had to explain to both of them how it works.

The bottom line is that just because you understand how things work, that doesn't mean everyone does.

[nightmare69]

[That's absurd and unrealistic. IMHO

Not to pick on just you, ( I often qualify)...but "IMHO" has to be the most out of place abbreviation used on any forum....but certainly, in your case, the "H" just doesn't fit!

You may be right but what should I change the H to and would people get it. IMEO? IMCO? IMIO?

IMTWOUOWIODLEOAWNCTEWTNIO

Anygunanywhere

You old guys are worse than teenage girls with your acronyms, I have no idea what half of them mean.

IDK my BFF JILL

[Cedar Park Dad]

Way overboard for a potential of minors possessing a supposed12-pack of beer. Even if they are trying to get evidence to arrest the supplier, it was stupid to bring guns into play. I caught quite a few under age people with beer back years ago. If they were cooperative and not intoxicated, they usually walked with no beer and a good warning the first time.

Why are these guys targetting teenagers? have they so taken down every other threat that they can now concentrate on teenagers with a supposed 12 pack. Isn't that what the local constabulary is for???

Why are we leaping onto hoods, trying to break windows etc? I'm surprised no one was shot with this band of supposed law enforcement. Again people should be fired and again absolutely nothing will happen. George Orwell indeed.
Pick up that can citizen.

[EEllis]

The bottom line is that just because you understand how things work, that doesn't mean everyone does.

I'm quite aware of that

So the girls in a panic made a mistake. I have no real issue with that but her mistake escalated the situation and all the blame goes on the cops? Yeah that makes sense.

[EEllis]

Way overboard for a potential of minors possessing a supposed12-pack of beer. Even if they are trying to get evidence to arrest the supplier, it was stupid to bring guns into play. I caught quite a few under age people with beer back years ago. If they were cooperative and not intoxicated, they usually walked with no beer and a good warning the first time.

Why are these guys targetting teenagers? have they so taken down every other threat that they can now concentrate on teenagers with a supposed 12 pack. Isn't that what the local constabulary is for???

Why are we leaping onto hoods, trying to break windows etc? I'm surprised no one was shot with this band of supposed law enforcement. Again people should be fired and again absolutely nothing will happen. George Orwell indeed.
Pick up that can citizen.

For many people the use of Alcohol by minors is a major issue complete with lobbying groups and major political muscle. The idea that the agency responsible for alcohol regulation in the State should ignore minors with alcohol is at the least politically unrealistic.

Then we return to someone calling for firings without even an accusation of laws broken or policies violated.

[Cedar Park Dad]

EEllis, it's clear you think these officers did nothing wrong, and that's frightening. This came very close to a deadly force incident over a 12 pack of water. A 12 pack of water!! That should give any thinking officer pause. You claim the girl hit two officers. The story says her car "brushed them". It's not at all uncommon for officers to claim assault when they weren't hurt in any way, because technically even touching an officer is assault. But you know and I know that touching an officer isn't a threat and should never be charged. The charges smack of retaliation because the officers were mad that the girls didn't cooperate. But in this day and age, when a group of people in street clothes approach two women in the dark of night, those women would justifiably feel threatened. Any officer with a day of experience should know and understand that.

Think about this for a minute. These officers (and there were seven of them according to the Huffington Post article) are ABC agents yet they can't tell the difference between a 12 pack of water and a 12 pack of beer? Shouldn't that be part of their training? If they're going to be running around arresting people for having a 12 pack of beer, the least they can do is become familiar with the brands and packaging and learn the difference between water and beer!

And why did they wait until the girl was in her car before approaching her? Every officer should know that when a suspect gets in their car the danger increases dramatically. These officers clearly need training, and they should be thanking God that they didn't shoot this girl and have that on their consciences. Can you imagine the public outcry???

As soon as the girl started her car the officers tried to break her windows in! Over a 12 pack of water! Even if it HAD been beer, that is overkill. Call a uniformed officer, pull the car over and start the investigation. This sounds for all the world the same as officers chasing a suspect at 100 mph through neighborhoods and killing innocent citizens who were simply driving home because they're so amped up and determined to arrest the suspect. You would think by now that PDs would know that some "crimes" are not worth risking lives over - theirs or anyone else's.

I'm a strong supporter of the police, as anyone who reads my posts should obviously know, but darn it man, there has to be a presumption of innocence and a less aggressive approach unless the suspect's behavior justifies escalation. These girls did nothing to raise suspicion except carry a 12 pack of water from the store to their car. This requires 7 agents, drawn weapons, breaking windows and all the rest? Seriously?? Seriously??? For crying out loud, man, write down the dern license plate number and put a BOLO out for the car.

This is excessive force, plain and simple. I don't care what policy is. I don't care if they didn't break any laws. It's excessive, it's extremely dangerous behavior and it's inexcusable for any department or officer not to see that.

You ask "Is there some issue with PC for the original stop?" Yes, there is. How could they possibly know if she was underage? If she's not, then there's no PC. There's only suspicion. They suspect she's underage. They suspect she has beer. That's PC? That's a stretch. At the most it justifies a consensual stop to investigate. It certainly doesn't justify jumping on her hood, trying to break her windows and scaring the daylights out of her.

I can guarantee you one thing. If they had shot that girl the parents' lawsuit would have cleaned out their department's budget. And that tells you all you need to know. They were wrong, wrong, wrong, and they need to face that, think about what they've done and improve their thinking about approaching suspects.

Does it sound to you like this department is fulfilling their stated mission?

The Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) is a state-run agency whose mission is to safely and responsibly administer the sale and consumption of alcohol. ABC special agents have full police powers in Virginia. The agency's vision (as proclaimed on its website) is to "enhance the quality of life for Virginia's citizens" in carrying out its duties.

There was nothing safe or responsible about what they did.

Agreed on all points.
A simple blast of lights and siren would have worked here.
Seven officers? Are the local college/underage kids all hardened Zeta Narco commandos?

[Cedar Park Dad]

Way overboard for a potential of minors possessing a supposed12-pack of beer. Even if they are trying to get evidence to arrest the supplier, it was stupid to bring guns into play. I caught quite a few under age people with beer back years ago. If they were cooperative and not intoxicated, they usually walked with no beer and a good warning the first time.

Why are these guys targetting teenagers? have they so taken down every other threat that they can now concentrate on teenagers with a supposed 12 pack. Isn't that what the local constabulary is for???

Why are we leaping onto hoods, trying to break windows etc? I'm surprised no one was shot with this band of supposed law enforcement. Again people should be fired and again absolutely nothing will happen. George Orwell indeed.
Pick up that can citizen.

For many people the use of Alcohol by minors is a major issue complete with lobbying groups and major political muscle. The idea that the agency responsible for alcohol regulation in the State should ignore minors with alcohol is at the least politically unrealistic.

Then we return to someone calling for firings without even an accusation of laws broken or policies violated.

"I was following policy" is the excuse of the decade. I'll avoid the immediate Godwin reference.
Is it policy to jump on hoods, swarm teenagers and pull guns on teenegers over... beer?
If so then:
1. The policies need to change
2. The people thinking up the policies need to be fired for being that stupid.
3. The people implementing the pollicies need to be fired for not having the intelligence to realize how stupid they are.

[Redneck_Buddha]

CPD, thanks for not going all Godwin on us. I think it goes without saying, though. Oops, did I just do it?

[Cedar Park Dad]

CPD, thanks for not going all Godwin on us. I think it goes without saying, though. Oops, did I just do it?

Godwin tag, you're it!


I'm a bit sensitive to this topic as I have two teenagers and would stroke out if this happened to one of them.

[SQLGeek]

However, I think their actions have nothing to do with the "militarization" of law enforcement...whatever that term actually means...

I think it's an aversion to the police not looking and acting like they police in Mayberry. I could be wrong.

From my experience in working with college students in a quasi-LE fashion, younger people have a tendency to do weird and irrational things when confronted by law enforcement. It is entirely reasonable for me to believe the girl saw a badge, freaked out thinking she was in trouble for something and tried to get away from the situation. I don't know that's what happened here but I can definitely see it being possible.

Also it is not at all unusual for plainclothes (different from undercover BTW) ABC agents to make stops outside of establishments selling alcohol. My grandfather worked as a California ABC agent in the 70s and shared many different stories of him doing just that.

[Keith B]

For many people the use of Alcohol by minors is a major issue complete with lobbying groups and major political muscle. The idea that the agency responsible for alcohol regulation in the State should ignore minors with alcohol is at the least politically unrealistic.

Then we return to someone calling for firings without even an accusation of laws broken or policies violated.

Alcohol being a major issue or not, these officers need to realize who they are dealing with. I have a daughter in college and should they have treated her this way I would be all over the agency and the officers. College age girls may or may not be very mature (many are not). These girls were out and doing nothing wrong. All of a sudden they have a bunch of people running at them and yelling. I will bet they panicked and never heard a word anyone was saying because they were scared out off their wits. I hope the parents sue the agency and the officers involved, if nothing else to try and drive policy change when dealing with these little things.

Bottom line, underage college age kids drink and it has been that way for eons. If they locked up every one of them that had a beer on the weekend then they would have to turn the dorms into jail cells. I dealt with numerous high school and underage college kids with alcohol when I was a police officer. And while it is illegal for them to have it, it is not a felony issue. If you can stop them easily, then that is great. If not and they get into their vehicle to leave, get their license number and have them intercepted by a uniformed officer and meet them to do a search. If they really did have beer and ditch it somewhere before they get searched, so what? Pretty simple to get them stopped from drinking it or passing it on to someone else rather than doing a full tactical take down of a couple of young girls.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Bottom line, underage college age kids drink and it has been that way for eons. If they locked up every one of them that had a beer on the weekend then they would have to turn the dorms into jail cells. I dealt with numerous high school and underage college kids with alcohol when I was a police officer. And while it is illegal for them to have it, it is not a felony issue. If you can stop them easily, then that is great. If not and they get into their vehicle to leave, get their license number and have them intercepted by a uniformed officer and meet them to do a search. If they really did have beer and ditch it somewhere before they get searched, so what? Pretty simple to get them stopped from drinking it or passing it on to someone else rather than doing a full tactical take down of a couple of young girls.

Indeed. Appropriate response and enforcement is the key.