Victim store clerk pleads not guilty to death of robber

[RPB]

Toledo, OH
ToledoBlade.com
http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... death.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clerk pleads not guilty in death (of robber)
Defendant (store clerk who was shot at and was being robbed) free on recognizance bond
If convicted, Mr. Abu-Karsh faces up to 11 years in prison.
excerpts below, see link for full article

Bandar Abu-Karsh was led from a Lucas County Common Pleas courtroom in handcuffs Wednesday after pleading not guilty to a felony charge for the shooting death of a man who police say tried to rob him.

The North Toledo carryout employee was arraigned on one count of voluntary manslaughter. He was taken into custody immediately after his arraignment to be booked and was then released under a supervised recognizance bond.

If convicted, Mr. Abu-Karsh faces up to 11 years in prison.

According to police, Allen and an accomplice entered the carryout about 9:45 a.m. Nov. 21. Once inside, Allen threatened the store clerk and began emptying the register of cash, police said.

Allen collapsed after being shot multiple times. His accomplice shot at the clerk several times and fled.

Lucas County Deputy Coroner Cynthia Beisser, who conducted Allen's autopsy, said he died of "multiple shots in the chest that caused extensive damage." She noted that Allen was shot once in the head and multiple times in the chest.

The charge against Mr. Abu-Karsh had sparked a debate in the community about the definition of self-defense. In Ohio, what is commonly known as the "Castle Doctrine" indicates a person does not have the duty to retreat before using self-defense.

It further adds that it does not give a person the right to use deadly force.

More at link above

[i8godzilla]

Guess we will have to wait until they release the video......

[philip964]

This appears to be similar to the drug store robber in Oklahoma. A second gun was retrieved to shoot the BG more. He apparently was hit with 10 bullets altogether. Yeah and there is a video.

[WildBill]

This appears to be similar to the drug store robber in Oklahoma. A second gun was retrieved to shoot the BG more. He apparently was hit with 10 bullets altogether. Yeah and there is a video.

Probably true, but he may have a defense in that you can't kill a dead person.

[philip964]

This appears to be similar to the drug store robber in Oklahoma. A second gun was retrieved to shoot the BG more. He apparently was hit with 10 bullets altogether. Yeah and there is a video.

Probably true, but he may have a defense in that you can't kill a dead person.

Further down in the article they talk about the lungs being full of blood. Which they say means the man died a while after being shot the first time. Best thing going for him is that he is having "immigration problems" and is from a minority religious group, otherwise I would say his fate may be the same as the man from Oklahoma.

[WildBill]

This appears to be similar to the drug store robber in Oklahoma. A second gun was retrieved to shoot the BG more. He apparently was hit with 10 bullets altogether. Yeah and there is a video.

Probably true, but he may have a defense in that you can't kill a dead person.

Further down in the article they talk about the lungs being full of blood. Which they say means the man died a while after being shot the first time. Best thing going for him is that he is having "immigration problems" and is from a minority religious group, otherwise I would say his fate may be the same as the man from Oklahoma.

I hope that he gets "no-billed". If he doesn't he is going to have a whole bunch of lawyer bills regardless of the final outcome.

[n5wd]

ToledoBlade.com
http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... death.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The charge against Mr. Abu-Karsh had sparked a debate in the community about the definition of self-defense. In Ohio, what is commonly known as the "Castle Doctrine" indicates a person does not have the duty to retreat before using self-defense.

It further adds that it does not give a person the right to use deadly force.[/b]

You don't have to retreat, but if you don't, you have to not use deadly force?

[WildBill]

ToledoBlade.com
http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... death.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The charge against Mr. Abu-Karsh had sparked a debate in the community about the definition of self-defense. In Ohio, what is commonly known as the "Castle Doctrine" indicates a person does not have the duty to retreat before using self-defense.

It further adds that it does not give a person the right to use deadly force.[/b]

You don't have to retreat, but if you don't, you have to not use deadly force?

I think the debate is that once the threat is no longer present it is no longer self-defense if you continue to use deadly force.

[Jumping Frog]

Yeah, this has been discussed over on Ohioans For Concealed Carry. After the threat was over, the clerk came back and executed the guy as he lay unmoving and face down on the floor. The first shot stopped the threat. Coming back inside the store 46 seconds later and shooting him another 5 times was execution, not self defense.

The video then shows Ersland shooting Parker once, knocking him to the ground.

After chasing Parker's accomplice out of the store, Ersland retrieved a second gun and returned to shoot Parker five more times, 46 seconds after firing the first shot, news reports state.

Prosecutors in the case said Ersland eliminated the threat with his first shot and was not defending himself or anyone else when he fired more shots at the youth.

[drjoker]

When someone is trying to kill you, you are no longer a person, but all the adrenaline will cause you to become an animal trying to survive. The instinctive fight or flight response kicks in. This is especially true if you are not a veteran. Almost all lay persons will act on instinct. Kill or be killed: that is the instinct. Yet, stinky armchair quarterbacks are indicting him for murder. Shame on the arresting officer, shame on the D.A., and shame on the grand jury. My only wish in life are for these same armchair quarterbacks to face mortal danger themselves. I'd buy popcorn to that show!

I think we should lobby for a law that says, once someone instigates an armed robbery, anything that the defender/victim does is legal. Nothing is out of bounds. There are no rules to survival except that you survive. I'm sure that bleeding heart Birkenstock wearers will say that is vigilante justice or murder or some other drivel. But, how can it be murder for the defender/victim if the instigator voluntarily CAUSED the situation by conducting armed robbery in the first place? I mean, if you don't rob anyone, then nobody would have to shoot you to defend themself, right? So these thugs that get shot brought it upon themselves. Ergo, logically, all thugs shot during robbery is a case of suicide. If one causes one's own death, then it is suicide, not homicide, right?

Who wants to sign a petition for the "Super castle doctrine?"