AR: Elderly lawyer shot while deputies served warrant

[seamusTX]

In southern Arkansas, near the town of Ida, Louisiana (middle of nowhere), deputies attempted to serve a warrant on a 71-year-old lawyer who was in the habit of wearing two revolvers and "cowboy" clothing. The police fatally shot him when he allegedly pointed his handguns at police officers.

http://www.ktbs.com/news/25354636/detail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The comments on web sites are usually garbage, but these are worth reading, IMHO.

- Jim

[gigag04]

To answer some of the questions:


Warrants can be served at any time, even Sunday. I frequently wake people at at 0330
to serve a warrant. It passes time and keeps me busy.

Long rifles - I would bring a long gun to serve a warrant on a person known to be armed.

[Beiruty]

Another Erick Scott case?

[Bullwhip]

I don't live too far from there. , in the four states area. Mr. Morneau has a reputation as a freindly flamboyent kind of person. I heard that he thinks the state line was drawn wrong. the land he claimed was where he thought the border really was.

I wonder why two game wardens and one deputy would wander through private woods to serve a misdemeanor warrant on a small piece of land. The man owned much more land and lived and worked in Louisiana and was an officer of the court. Sounds like the caddo sheriff should of served him.

[KD5NRH]

I wonder why two game wardens and one deputy would wander through private woods to serve a misdemeanor warrant on a small piece of land. The man owned much more land and lived and worked in Louisiana and was an officer of the court. Sounds like the caddo sheriff should of served him.

It does seem a bit squirelly that they went out of their way to serve the warrants in a place where there would be no witnesses. If he's a practicing lawyer, it would be dead simple to take him into custody next time he walks into the courthouse, where he would expect a fair number of LE to be hanging around and would have no warning until the cuffs were on.

[Rex B]

To answer some of the questions:


Warrants can be served at any time, even Sunday. I frequently wake people at at 0330
to serve a warrant. It passes time and keeps me busy.

If it's not a warrant for a violent felony, that's just wrong.
It increases the odds that something will go wrong, and it makes the police look like gestapo.

[longtooth]

Been a long time since I lived there but Bethsaida Baptist Church in Ida, La, was my first church to pastor. Lot of that area used to be in dispute 50 yrs ago. In 1974 there was still a lot of talk about different lines, including the state line. There is an area there around Caddo Lake that is stilled known officially as Uncertain, Texas.

Depending on how long the disputed line is, a few dozen feet can amount to a lot of land. Takes at leas 3 around here to be a few. More like 4-5. 48 ft by say 10 acres long is a sizable land dispute & when I was there in late 70s there were still several of those being regularly talked about. I remember a few that were over corner servey stakes being moved in areas where the land boundries were not tree marked. Those were real trouble sometimes.

Dont remember him by name but he is old enough to have been active at that date.

Bottom line on whether or not it may be another "Eric Scot" NO, Pointing 2 guns at LEOs is not the way to hash that out. Especially for a lawyer.

[gigag04]

Deleted and reworded below****

[seamusTX]

Thanks for the background, Longtooth. Those rural areas have a reputation for long-simmering feuds.

The lack of witnesses other than the police is convenient.

- Jim

[gigag04]

To answer some of the questions:


Warrants can be served at any time, even Sunday. I frequently wake people at at 0330
to serve a warrant. It passes time and keeps me busy.

If it's not a warrant for a violent felony, that's just wrong.
It increases the odds that something will go wrong, and it makes the police look like gestapo.

I appreciate the difference in opinion. However, I have a job to do. There are numerous non-violent offenses that people still need to go to jail for: burglary, theft, embezzlement, etc. Even Family Violence assault causing bodily injury is only a Class A misdemeanor.

It sounds ideal to have warrants served politely, during working hours, and every complies. That simply is not the case, people commit crimes and don't have a desire to answer for them. Warrants are served every day, our detectives get the warrants and let patrol know to go serve them. It's just how things work. I don't see this as "just wrong." This isn't Ruby Ridge...we don't take unnecessary risks.

[seamusTX]

"How dare you sleep under the blanket of protection that I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it."
—Col. Nathan R. Jessep, played by Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men



- Jim

[gigag04]

"How dare you sleep under the blanket of protection that I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it."
—Col. Nathan R. Jessep, played by Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men



- Jim

Question away - serving a warrant is a executing court order...not some cops good idea.....

[Rex B]

I realize that in many cases it may make the most sense. If it's a repeat offender known to you, then I'm fine with anything you can legally do to make his life "inconvenient". I would hope that the warrant for the schoolteacher who forgot to pay a speeding ticket could wait until daytime.
The way you originally stated it made it sound like you did it for entertainment during the boring hours

[gigag04]

The way you originally stated it made it sound like you did it for entertainment during the boring hours

Nope - the only time I go serve class C warrants is when it's a known thug, gang banger, etc. Other than that, I find them on traffic stops about 5 times a month.

Our detectives only investigate Class B's and above, these warrants are served as soon as possible to close out the case, and get criminals behind bars before they act again. Sure some will bond out before I even turn in the arrest paperwork, but that's what we have to work with.

[Charles L. Cotton]

From the news report, it appears that the LEO's didn't do anything wrong. The warrant was served during the day and the officers identified themselves as LEO's. The man pointed two guns at them and got shot. That's a righteous shooting. If the facts are other than as reported, then that could change my opinion, but at this point I have no reason to doubt the officer's statements.

This thread has morphed to a wider discussion of serving warrants in general and I agree with many Members that tactics used to serve warrants have gotten out of hand. I was a COP for 15 years and during those years in Friendswood, there were relatively few warrants to serve that involved violent crimes or drug crimes. I served quite a number of warrants so I understand the task from a LEO's point of view. Nevertheless, what I experienced didn't come close to what officers with large departments deal with on a regular basis.

In my view, except in very rare circumstances, warrants should be served at a time and in a manner that minimizes the risk of injury or death to the citizen. This is not in the wee hours of the morning when they are asleep. Being awakened from a deep sleep by the banging on their door and screaming, or with officers crashing through the door or "making a good pull" with a wench truck and tearing out an entire wall, is a formula for someone getting shot. No one can be expected to be awakened in that manner and be fully alert and able to respond calmly. For all practical purposes, it sounds and appears to the home owner to be a violent burglary. Remember, this is an arrest warrant not a death warrant. These risks are amplified when serving so-called "no knock" warrants, but they are not limited to those circumstances.

I cringe whenever I hear a LEO proclaim that "officer safety" is paramount. No it is not! When I was a COP that was not my attitude because that places the officer's life above those he/she swore to protect. While I appreciate the job LEO's do, the good ones at least, none of us who wear/wore the badge were drafted. If you are not willing to do the job in a manner that provides the greatest safety to the very people you swore to protect, then do something else.

In the last 30 years, we have seen the gradual militarization of our nation's police forces and that is worrisome. I was in a meeting a few years ago when a former Texas Speaker of the House made the comment, "what has happened to today's law enforcement officers? I used to respect them, but no more because . . ." Before he could finish his sentence a retired DPS Lieutenant said "I'll tell you why! Because training and attitude has changed, that's why. No longer do we teach our cadets (not DPS) that they serve the public or that they should befriend the public. Now they are taught that they are the pointy end of the spear and that their job is to punish, not apprehend and let others decide guilt, innocence and punishment." I believe the LT. was right.

When I was a younger man, TV shows like Joe Forrester (Lloyd Bridges) and Adam 12 (Kent McCord & Martin Milner) were hugely popular. They portrayed police officers as your friends, part of the community, men who employed physical violence only when necessary and only to the minimal level necessary. Today, virtually every COP show has officers busting heads, making snide condescending comments, and generally violating the Constitution on a routine basis. So-called reality shows like COPS and Dallas SWAT are/were popular and which footage did they chose to show? Why the footage with head busting and "good pulls" that brought down entire walls of a home.

In response to the Watts riots in 1965, many large city departments started forming SWAT teams. Joseph McNamara, then-Police Chief for San Jose, California, issued a warning in the mid 1970's against this step toward militarizing the police. McNamara was and I presume still is rabidly anti-gun, so I discounted his concerns as being indicative of his overall dislike of guns. However, 30 years later I believe his warnings were somewhat prophetic. In the early days, SWAT teams were used in only the most violent of situations; now they are deployed virtually anytime the patrol officer doesn't want to deal with a situation, or his/her department won't allow them to do so. And why do SWAT officers wear ski masks, if not to hide their identity and appear more sinister and menacing? I understand the need to hide the identity of an undercover officer, but not SWAT officers.

My concerns are shared by many many officers I know, most of whom are 50 years old or older. I love COPS and I love the U.S. Marines, but I don't want to send the Marines into our cities anymore than I want to send COPS to Afghanistan. Each have their functions and their theater of operations and they shouldn't be mixed. I guess at the end of the day, I want Joe Forrester back.

Chas.