Morman Bloodbath in Mexico

[TreyHouston]

A Mexican police officer involved in the botched operation to arrest one of drug kingpin Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman’s son last month was killed by a hail of more than 150 bullets in a brazen daylight assassination, in the latest incident of extreme cartel violence to blight the country.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-po ... el-killing

Cartel proving they own the police

[carlson1]

I don’t by the “they were caught in a fire fight with the drug cartel” being 10 miles apart.

[Paladin]

I don’t by the “they were caught in a fire fight with the drug cartel” being 10 miles apart.

carlson1, I think that line was for the sheeple. Even my leftist co-worker thought that "caught in a fire fight" line was absurd.

[Hoodasnacks]

My opinion on this, while logical, has admittedly moved to an extreme--I would love some honest discussion on the following thought:

The power of the cartels, and the lack of competence/caring/pure corruptness of the Mexican government causes 10's of thousands of deaths per year in the United States based on drug-related issues. Human trafficking, sex slavery, and thousands of other crimes are also more prevalent than they should be because of the failed state on our border. Then there is the further cost on our education system, healthcare system, etc., due to the masses of people that come here as a result of these circumstances. The cost of this failed state in lives and dollars for us is likely much higher than the cost of a war. There is no end in site to this death and destruction that will be forced on our dear country. Additionally, Mexico also has a great deal of natural resources, and a very small southern border which is strategically preferable--and a ton of good people that I would be happy to welcome as brothers and sisters.

Why not take it over? We would probably be greeted like liberators. Mexico can keep its flag and pride in their heritage just as Texas has. We certainly should be more concerned with a failed state on our border than failed states in the middle east.

I have moved past the "what happens in their country is none of our business" because it is our business. What happens there impacts the liberties of US citizens every day.

Not trying to troll---this is a forum of intelligent people that I respect. I always try to think out of the box and this is one consideration to at least examine before we rule it out. I would love to see a poll of the Mexican citizens of what they would think about this--I am genuinely curious.

[The Annoyed Man]

Frankly, I don’t care HOW we kill them; we just can’t kill them on our side of the border without suspending the Constitution....and that’s a road none of us should want to travel down, because the NEXT president might use that excuse to terminate anyone they don’t like on our side of the border—including anyone of us.

Why can't we declare the cartels terrorist organizations and kill them in their own homes?

We routinely operate in other nations to bomb, kill, disrupt terror organizations. It may not completely eliminate the problem but it sure would slow them down.

On THEIR side of the border, that’s fine. That’s why I’ve said all along that drone strikes and/or limited clandestine direct action teams are a possible remedy. No matter how hard you sell it on OUR side of the border, half the people aren’t going to buy it. Remember when Trump made a comment about MS-13 criminals sneaking across the border, and the left went ballistic, accusing Trump of calling all immigrant Hispanics criminals? They HAD the actual facts at their disposal, but they chose to ignore them for the sake of demonizing Trump some more. So you’ll never be able to sell termination with extreme prejudice inside our own borders. Eventually, the faction representing the half of American voters who WANT to see us crumble, supported by the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”), will complain that the gov’t is engaged in genocide against Hispanics, and that will turn into massive rioting and CERTAIN political violence.

Killing them on their own side of the border is fine....up to a point. But you can’t contemplate these things without gaming out likely outcomes, and devising exit strategies in advance in case things go sideways. To NOT do that is the pinnacle of military and executive incompetence. So.....Here’s what will eventually happen if you think this through to it’s logical conclusion, based on actual experience around the world:

There will be collateral deaths of relatively innocent people. Even narco-terrorists have children whom they love, and some of those kids are going to get blown up when a drone puts a Hellfire missile into their house. You can blame the cartels for those deaths all you want, but when the Democrat Steno Pool (AKA “the media”) gets its bloody hands on the story, it is going to run with the whole "US military kills innocents" trope. The Mexican gov’t, which even if it had been complicit in allowing the killings to begin with, will get pressure from a large percentage of Mexico’s population to stop American intervention. There’ll be protests to the UN. Other Central and South American countries will join in the outraged reaction....not to mention Iran and other bad actors. In response, more of them—Including probably Mexico—will seek closer ties with China and/or Russia. If you’re bothered by Russian heavy bombers flying in and out of Venezuela, wait until they’re deployed to Mexican airfields....along with all their support and some units of "little green men" Spetsnaz operators.

THAT is how things will eventually play out. Frankly, we don’t have any really good options. Equally frankly, Mexico has been at economic war with us for at least 50 years—using the US as a safety valve for their own governmental incompetence and corruption. They have ZERO incentive to stop it, and we no longer have the guts or the treasury to nation-build. Yes, the Constitution is being used to dismantle the Constitution, and capitalism is being used to dismantle capitalism. Doing away with either the Constitution or capitalism is unacceptable, but fewer and fewer people care about the liberty afforded by those two things. Balkanization of the country is a forgone conclusion for me. The upside of it is, if the fedgov’t can’t or won’t build a wall, when it finally becomes completely irrelevant to the states, maybe Texas CAN build a wall, and maybe the Texas Constitution and law can be modified so as to permit extrajudicial killing of narco-terrorists inside of our own borders. But the fedgov’t is a dying organism, and it’s never going to be able to do anything to effectively protect American citizens from narco-terrorists, because for every American who hates them, there are one or two others who view them as Robin Hoods.

We're hosed.

[Liberty]

The heart of the drug problem is the consumer. You get rid of the consumer and the suppliers go away. Not prosecuting and actually punishing the abusers is the root of the problem. We need to clean up the problem from this side of the border before we focus on Mexico. Treating the druggies like victims has a track record of not working. We still need to go after the suppliers. but until we slow down the demand the problem won't go away.

[Redneck_Buddha]

The heart of the drug problem is the consumer. You get rid of the consumer and the suppliers go away. Not prosecuting and actually punishing the abusers is the root of the problem. We need to clean up the problem from this side of the border before we focus on Mexico. Treating the druggies like victims has a track record of not working. We still need to go after the suppliers. but until we slow down the demand the problem won't go away.

Don't know when I've agreed any less with a post on this site.

[The Annoyed Man]

My opinion on this, while logical, has admittedly moved to an extreme--I would love some honest discussion on the following thought:

The power of the cartels, and the lack of competence/caring/pure corruptness of the Mexican government causes 10's of thousands of deaths per year in the United States based on drug-related issues. Human trafficking, sex slavery, and thousands of other crimes are also more prevalent than they should be because of the failed state on our border. Then there is the further cost on our education system, healthcare system, etc., due to the masses of people that come here as a result of these circumstances. The cost of this failed state in lives and dollars for us is likely much higher than the cost of a war. There is no end in site to this death and destruction that will be forced on our dear country. Additionally, Mexico also has a great deal of natural resources, and a very small southern border which is strategically preferable--and a ton of good people that I would be happy to welcome as brothers and sisters.

Why not take it over? We would probably be greeted like liberators. Mexico can keep its flag and pride in their heritage just as Texas has. We certainly should be more concerned with a failed state on our border than failed states in the middle east.

I have moved past the "what happens in their country is none of our business" because it is our business. What happens there impacts the liberties of US citizens every day.

Not trying to troll---this is a forum of intelligent people that I respect. I always try to think out of the box and this is one consideration to at least examine before we rule it out. I would love to see a poll of the Mexican citizens of what they would think about this--I am genuinely curious.

Ok, I’ll bite and explain why I think that’s a bad idea....

First of all, that’s a HUGE assumption that we’d be greeted as liberators. Remember how long that idea lasted in Iraq/Afghanistan? Some Mexican citizens might be in favor of the idea, but mostly only because they would see it as removing a barrier to US largess.....NOT because they are particularly "Amerophiles". That’s why, instead of choosing a pathway to citizenship when they get here, they view themselves as here temporarily, to earn money, which they can send back to their families in Mexico, or whatever Central/Southern American country they come from. And the truth is—which we can see even in our own country and culture—that more people prize security over liberty, than those who prize liberty over security. They prefer the known "security" of the bondage they have, to the unknown insecurity of the liberty they don’t have. That’s why so many US citizens are willing today to sell capitalism down the river for the "security" of the socialist nanny state. With the possible exception of those who make the journey north, citizens of Mexico most likely feel the same way. They prefer the known to the unknown, and an invading army is an ENORMOUS unknown.

Secondly, do not make the mistake of assuming that Mexicans aren’t patriots. Are you willing to kill a whole lot of otherwise innocent Mexican patriots, defending their homeland from a foreign invasion, so that you can kill a few thousand cartel members? I despise what my federal gov’t has become, but if another country was foolish enough to invade us, I would fight them, tooth and nail—because I love my country even if I don’t love it’s government. I love the principles on which it was founded, along with its founding documents—even if the gov’t has largely abandoned those principles and nullified those documents. I would fight an invader tooth and nail, NO MATTER WHO IT IS, in the hopes that once they were defeated and driven out, it would present an opportunity to restore MY gov’t to its founding principles, using its founding documents as a reliable guide. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that a LARGE part of the Mexican population wouldn’t feel exactly the same way.

Thirdly, don’t make the mistake of thinking that an invasion of Mexico would be seen as anything less than a race-war, all over the world as well as by Mexicans, including among at least half of our OWN population. In modern day Mexico, Hernan Cortés is so reviled as the bringer of "whiteness" and Christianity to Mexico, and as the eradicator of Aztec life and culture, that there is seldom any mention or celebration of his name by the country's gov’t, educational institutions, museums, and oral history. In the country's most important museums, where there are displayed artifacts and bones of the Aztecs, there is frequent mention of the Aztec proclivity for human sacrifice (as many as 8,000-12,000 victims per year at the Aztec "capital" of Tenochtitlan), and they even talk about when the practice ended. But there is NO mention that it was ended by Hernan Cortés, who as bad as he was, saw something even darker and worse in the murdering of thousands to appease pagan gods. That’s how hated he is. Tribal memories die hard. Cortés is their Hitler. And there is currently happening in Mexico a rebirth of interest in the cultures and religions of their first people. Earlier this year, the president of Mexico even sent a letter to King Felipe VI of Spain, demanding that he apologize for Spain’s invasion of Mexico back in the 1500s. The letter was rightly refused and ridiculed, but that doesn’t change the fact that a LOT of Mexican citizens self identify as Aztec descendants....even many white students of Spanish descent. There’s an interesting article about it here: https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2019/05 ... mbivalent/. In any case, a large military incursion by an army of norteamericanos isn’t likely to be well received by Mexicans, and it would have a high probability of bogging down, just as our adventures into Iraq and Afghanistan did. And it would be compounded by shifting public attitudes in the US—a nation exhausted by 18 years of war—and by feckless leadership in DC with poorly defined and constantly changing goals.

Lastly, take a lesson from the reunification of East and West Germany....which is a huge topic on its own. But suffice it to say that when a vibrant and growing capitalist economy tried to absorb a nearly equal population of people raised under a competing political ideology and economic theory, it made for very hard cheese for Germans for a time. Sure, the former East Germans prospered....or rather....they collected more benefits....but it took a long time before they learned west German style capitalism and got themselves off the public dole. West Germany paid the price for supporting that state of affairs longer than they should have. The exact same situation will face the Koreas if they ever reunite, and it will CERTAINLY face us if we tried to absorb Mexico into the Union.

Nope. Best to not try to "take over" Mexico.

[03Lightningrocks]

The heart of the drug problem is the consumer. You get rid of the consumer and the suppliers go away. Not prosecuting and actually punishing the abusers is the root of the problem. We need to clean up the problem from this side of the border before we focus on Mexico. Treating the druggies like victims has a track record of not working. We still need to go after the suppliers. but until we slow down the demand the problem won't go away.

Don't know when I've agreed any less with a post on this site.

Same here. Drug addiction is a disease, just like alcoholism and over eating. If throwing people in jail for using drugs was a real solution, we would have eliminated drug use 30 years ago. People caught in the possession of narcotics are going to jail for longer periods than ever before. The only thing that has been achieved is more people in prison. There are literally millions of Americans using marijuana, even though it is illegal in most states. Making it "more illegal" will have about the same affect on drug use as making guns "more illegal" has on people getting shot.

[Liberty]

The heart of the drug problem is the consumer. You get rid of the consumer and the suppliers go away. Not prosecuting and actually punishing the abusers is the root of the problem. We need to clean up the problem from this side of the border before we focus on Mexico. Treating the druggies like victims has a track record of not working. We still need to go after the suppliers. but until we slow down the demand the problem won't go away.

Don't know when I've agreed any less with a post on this site.

Same here. Drug addiction is a disease, just like alcoholism and over eating. If throwing people in jail for using drugs was a real solution, we would have eliminated drug use 30 years ago. People caught in the possession of narcotics are going to jail for longer periods than ever before. The only thing that has been achieved is more people in prison. There are literally millions of Americans using marijuana, even though it is illegal in most states. Making it "more illegal" will have about the same affect on drug use as making guns "more illegal" has on people getting shot.

As long as there is a demand there will always be someone to fill that demand. cutting supplies just drives the prices higher and increases the demand. Catch and release does nothing to resolve the issue. Its a self induced disease that can only be cure by the patient.

[anygunanywhere]

War on drugs - dismal failure.
War on terrorism - some victories but at the cost of how many young american's lives and how much of our tax dollars?

The definition of war these days is sending our military to the battlefield with one hand tied behind their back and prosecuting them when they get too agressive.

[Hoodasnacks]

My opinion on this, while logical, has admittedly moved to an extreme--I would love some honest discussion on the following thought:

The power of the cartels, and the lack of competence/caring/pure corruptness of the Mexican government causes 10's of thousands of deaths per year in the United States based on drug-related issues. Human trafficking, sex slavery, and thousands of other crimes are also more prevalent than they should be because of the failed state on our border. Then there is the further cost on our education system, healthcare system, etc., due to the masses of people that come here as a result of these circumstances. The cost of this failed state in lives and dollars for us is likely much higher than the cost of a war. There is no end in site to this death and destruction that will be forced on our dear country. Additionally, Mexico also has a great deal of natural resources, and a very small southern border which is strategically preferable--and a ton of good people that I would be happy to welcome as brothers and sisters.

Why not take it over? We would probably be greeted like liberators. Mexico can keep its flag and pride in their heritage just as Texas has. We certainly should be more concerned with a failed state on our border than failed states in the middle east.

I have moved past the "what happens in their country is none of our business" because it is our business. What happens there impacts the liberties of US citizens every day.

Not trying to troll---this is a forum of intelligent people that I respect. I always try to think out of the box and this is one consideration to at least examine before we rule it out. I would love to see a poll of the Mexican citizens of what they would think about this--I am genuinely curious.

Ok, I’ll bite and explain why I think that’s a bad idea....

First of all, that’s a HUGE assumption that we’d be greeted as liberators. Remember how long that idea lasted in Iraq/Afghanistan? Some Mexican citizens might be in favor of the idea, but mostly only because they would see it as removing a barrier to US largess.....NOT because they are particularly "Amerophiles". That’s why, instead of choosing a pathway to citizenship when they get here, they view themselves as here temporarily, to earn money, which they can send back to their families in Mexico, or whatever Central/Southern American country they come from. And the truth is—which we can see even in our own country and culture—that more people prize security over liberty, than those who prize liberty over security. They prefer the known "security" of the bondage they have, to the unknown insecurity of the liberty they don’t have. That’s why so many US citizens are willing today to sell capitalism down the river for the "security" of the socialist nanny state. With the possible exception of those who make the journey north, citizens of Mexico most likely feel the same way. They prefer the known to the unknown, and an invading army is an ENORMOUS unknown.

Secondly, do not make the mistake of assuming that Mexicans aren’t patriots. Are you willing to kill a whole lot of otherwise innocent Mexican patriots, defending their homeland from a foreign invasion, so that you can kill a few thousand cartel members? I despise what my federal gov’t has become, but if another country was foolish enough to invade us, I would fight them, tooth and nail—because I love my country even if I don’t love it’s government. I love the principles on which it was founded, along with its founding documents—even if the gov’t has largely abandoned those principles and nullified those documents. I would fight an invader tooth and nail, NO MATTER WHO IT IS, in the hopes that once they were defeated and driven out, it would present an opportunity to restore MY gov’t to its founding principles, using its founding documents as a reliable guide. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that a LARGE part of the Mexican population wouldn’t feel exactly the same way.

Thirdly, don’t make the mistake of thinking that an invasion of Mexico would be seen as anything less than a race-war, all over the world as well as by Mexicans, including among at least half of our OWN population. In modern day Mexico, Hernan Cortés is so reviled as the bringer of "whiteness" and Christianity to Mexico, and as the eradicator of Aztec life and culture, that there is seldom any mention or celebration of his name by the country's gov’t, educational institutions, museums, and oral history. In the country's most important museums, where there are displayed artifacts and bones of the Aztecs, there is frequent mention of the Aztec proclivity for human sacrifice (as many as 8,000-12,000 victims per year at the Aztec "capital" of Tenochtitlan), and they even talk about when the practice ended. But there is NO mention that it was ended by Hernan Cortés, who as bad as he was, saw something even darker and worse in the murdering of thousands to appease pagan gods. That’s how hated he is. Tribal memories die hard. Cortés is their Hitler. And there is currently happening in Mexico a rebirth of interest in the cultures and religions of their first people. Earlier this year, the president of Mexico even sent a letter to King Felipe VI of Spain, demanding that he apologize for Spain’s invasion of Mexico back in the 1500s. The letter was rightly refused and ridiculed, but that doesn’t change the fact that a LOT of Mexican citizens self identify as Aztec descendants....even many white students of Spanish descent. There’s an interesting article about it here: https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2019/05 ... mbivalent/. In any case, a large military incursion by an army of norteamericanos isn’t likely to be well received by Mexicans, and it would have a high probability of bogging down, just as our adventures into Iraq and Afghanistan did. And it would be compounded by shifting public attitudes in the US—a nation exhausted by 18 years of war—and by feckless leadership in DC with poorly defined and constantly changing goals.

Lastly, take a lesson from the reunification of East and West Germany....which is a huge topic on its own. But suffice it to say that when a vibrant and growing capitalist economy tried to absorb a nearly equal population of people raised under a competing political ideology and economic theory, it made for very hard cheese for Germans for a time. Sure, the former East Germans prospered....or rather....they collected more benefits....but it took a long time before they learned west German style capitalism and got themselves off the public dole. West Germany paid the price for supporting that state of affairs longer than they should have. The exact same situation will face the Koreas if they ever reunite, and it will CERTAINLY face us if we tried to absorb Mexico into the Union.

Nope. Best to not try to "take over" Mexico.

Thanks for the response. Any of those could be serious challenges. Interesting insight on historic concerns as well. Mexico would have to be in much worse shape to greet us as heroes as opposed to conquerors.

In the end, we really need to clean our own house before we worry about anyone else.

[K.Mooneyham]

The heart of the drug problem is the consumer. You get rid of the consumer and the suppliers go away. Not prosecuting and actually punishing the abusers is the root of the problem. We need to clean up the problem from this side of the border before we focus on Mexico. Treating the druggies like victims has a track record of not working. We still need to go after the suppliers. but until we slow down the demand the problem won't go away.

Don't know when I've agreed any less with a post on this site.

Same here. Drug addiction is a disease, just like alcoholism and over eating. If throwing people in jail for using drugs was a real solution, we would have eliminated drug use 30 years ago. People caught in the possession of narcotics are going to jail for longer periods than ever before. The only thing that has been achieved is more people in prison. There are literally millions of Americans using marijuana, even though it is illegal in most states. Making it "more illegal" will have about the same affect on drug use as making guns "more illegal" has on people getting shot.

I can have sympathy for someone who got addicted to prescription painkillers, and then moved to harder illegal drugs for one reason or another. The "opioid epidemic" is proof of that. And as far as drinking alcohol goes, tens of millions of Americans use some quantity of alcohol, often regularly, but do not bring harm to themselves or others by doing so, though obviously there are a lot who do abuse alcohol. Some folks fall into alcoholism gradually, and that's tragic. I was a bit of a drinker myself when I was a young servicemember, and I know that you can let alcohol get the best of you if you don't watch yourself. However, IMO, it takes a special kind of stupid to wake up one day and say, "Yep, I think I should smoke crack today, or maybe meth." Please note, I'm only talking about adult Americans who willingly and knowingly used those insanely addictive substances, despite all the wide-spread information that those substances are deadly to the user sooner rather than later. I'm not even bringing marijuana into this discussion because its effects are so different from "hard drugs" or alcohol. For the record, I have never used illegal drugs, not even marijuana, not even once. Hard to stay in the Air Force if you do that stuff, and hard to keep a security clearance after "retiring" from active duty, as well. I value my life and my career as an aircraft mechanic, and care more about my family than to do that kind of thing...plus, as corny as it may sound, I care more about my country than to do that.

[philip964]

https://www.click2houston.com/news/inve ... -years-ago

Family linked to triple homicide in Houston 31 years ago.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ameri ... ar-BBWws9I

100 Mormons in a convoy of 18 vehicles have abandoned Mexico and entered the US at Douglas, Arizona.

Their permanent Arizona cities of residence have yet to be determined.

Prior to the massacre, they were planning on leaving Mexico anyway due to increased cartel problems.

It is noted in the article that their Mexican hometown had 300 residents. If we assume that the other 200 are also American/Mexican people, let's hope they also get out of Dodge, and permanently move to the US.

SIA