Farmer's Branch officer charged with murder

[jkurtz]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

[WTR]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

Possibly, I should have stated that they are not "off duty" while in the process of apprehending or stopping criminals. They are acting as "on duty" Police Officers. I have no sympathy for the criminals in this instance. However, I think the Officer used poor judgement.

[JP171]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

[jkurtz]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

[Glockedandlocked]

Also remember that force up to and including deadly force is authorized to affect an arrest, it will be interesting to see how this plays out given the lack of real information and the few details that have emerged.

For there to be an arrest made in this case suggests that as we all know there is more to it than what has been released.

[anygunanywhere]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

[WildBill]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I remember watching an old Dragnet episode where Sgt Friday stated that a police officer is never "Off Duty".
He made this statement to show how dedicated police officers are and sometimes how difficult is was to leave work at the squad house.

Obviously a police officer is still a police officer when he/she takes off the uniform and goes home at the end of the shift, but they are not "on duty".
I believe the principle governing departmental liability for the actions of an off-duty peace officer is called under "color of law", i.e. If the person is acting as a peace officer or private citizen.
I found a reference to a court case where the off-duty officer was found not to be acting under color of law so the agency was not liable. This was a federal case. IANAL

Key Points:
When reviewing off-duty actions of officers always examine indicia of official authority:

Was off-duty officer wearing department uniform?
Was off-duty officer driving agency vehicle?
Did off-duty officer identify him or herself as a police officer?
Did off-duty officer attempt to make an arrest?
Did off-duty officer involve on-duty personnel by calling for assistance?
Did on-duty personnel ratify the off-duty officer’s actions where such approval was inappropriate under the circumstances?

Officers should note, when they decide to take action off-duty and they act under color of law, they may be exposing themselves to federal liability for a civil rights claim.

http://www.llrmi.com/articles/legal_upd ... -law.shtml

[JP171]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

there is infact a statute that says you can't do anything more than a layperson no matter your certification/license level, I am not going to look it up because I am just too lazy to do so it is in the EMS rules and the NPA that you must have standing orders or protocols signed by an MD before you can do anything above the basic first aid level. I wish it were different as the inability to act as a paramedic has hampered me at times. you also may not according to EMS rules stop at every accident you see and render aid, you must be a licensed first responder organization to do so and have a medical director, same as a nurse. yes it pulls a vacuum but its the way nurses have driven us because don't ya know " them paramedics is just loaded cannons that don't have no control" as stated by the current nurse over the EMS division of the state department of health services. yes it chaps my hide to be considered as subhuman thrall but that's what it is.

[rotor]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

What do you mean when you say criminal? Hypothetically someone has complete cardiac arrest, a non physician that has been doing cpr can not get things started and as a last attempt does open cardiac massage ( something 98% of physicians probably couldn't do). Let's say he is successful, the ambulance drives up and the patient is taken to the hospital and survives. I know, highly unlikely stuff. So what crime was committed? Assault? Wouldn't all of these things be covered by good sam law? Now civil suit is different. All hypothetical of course.

[JP171]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

What do you mean when you say criminal? Hypothetically someone has complete cardiac arrest, a non physician that has been doing cpr can not get things started and as a last attempt does open cardiac massage ( something 98% of physicians probably couldn't do). Let's say he is successful, the ambulance drives up and the patient is taken to the hospital and survives. I know, highly unlikely stuff. So what crime was committed? Assault? Wouldn't all of these things be covered by good sam law? Now civil suit is different. All hypothetical of course.

Actually it is criminal, it's called practicing medicine without a license and yep its a felony level crime. pre-hospital professionals are not under the good sam provisions of the law as they are trained and held to a different standard under the law. the state department of health services will scal them fast, they will take the cert and commit to felony charges in a heart beat. Now I can always get on the bus and "ask" the receiving facility for advanced treatment allowance(or as I do tell them I am doing it) and be legally ok, but if the MD says no then that's it end of story all I can do is basic skills and treatment, or I risk going to jail and being sued for practicing without a license and I darn sure ain't going to Jail for a darn band aid

[anygunanywhere]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

What do you mean when you say criminal? Hypothetically someone has complete cardiac arrest, a non physician that has been doing cpr can not get things started and as a last attempt does open cardiac massage ( something 98% of physicians probably couldn't do). Let's say he is successful, the ambulance drives up and the patient is taken to the hospital and survives. I know, highly unlikely stuff. So what crime was committed? Assault? Wouldn't all of these things be covered by good sam law? Now civil suit is different. All hypothetical of course.

Rendering care that is outside what you are allowed to do under the Texas EMS statutes is a criminal offense. In your straw man hypothetical the jury would have to decide the case if the MD was brought up on charges. My comments were regarding EMS professionals, not MDs.

[jkurtz]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

What do you mean when you say criminal? Hypothetically someone has complete cardiac arrest, a non physician that has been doing cpr can not get things started and as a last attempt does open cardiac massage ( something 98% of physicians probably couldn't do). Let's say he is successful, the ambulance drives up and the patient is taken to the hospital and survives. I know, highly unlikely stuff. So what crime was committed? Assault? Wouldn't all of these things be covered by good sam law? Now civil suit is different. All hypothetical of course.

Rendering care that is outside what you are allowed to do under the Texas EMS statutes is a criminal offense. In your straw man hypothetical the jury would have to decide the case if the MD was brought up on charges. My comments were regarding EMS professionals, not MDs.

How would it apply to other healthcare professionals such as nurses, physician assistants, and nurse practitioners?

[WildBill]

Did I miss something? Did the Farmer's Branch Officer give illegal medical treatment to someone?

[JP171]

How do you sue the City/Department for an off duty police officer who acted outside the police policy ?

My understanding from various threads on this forum, is that a Police Officer is never "OFF DUTY".

I think it is kind of silly to say police are never off duty. If that was the case, then everything they did would be done on behalf of, or as a representative of, their department. Obviously that isn't the case. Yes, they can perform police functions while off the clock, but that does not mean they are always on duty. To compare, medical personnel can respond to medical emergencies they might be witness to, but that does not mean they are on duty.

only as a layperson may respond, they are not allowed to do advanced techniques or to represent themselves as medical professionals if they are not on duty because they do not have a duty to act. so if your a woowoo DND paragawd you had better NOT be trying to do things that are above basic stop the bleeding and CPR, no O2 no thoracotomy no trach's no nothing more than layperson basic first aid. MD's ofcourse may act as an MD no matter where they are in Texas if so licensed.

I am pretty certain that response is dictated by your scope of practice, not what the layperson can do. Is there a particular statute that you know of stating differently?

MDs are licensed and can act as doctors wherever they are anytime.

Para professionals are certified. Some are licensed. Para professionals operate under the direction of an MD whenever they perform advanced skills in the field. Whenever they are not acting in the capacity of their system they are essentially lay persons and can only perform basic functions. No medical direction, no advanced skills. Performing beyond the basic layperson level without medical direction is criminal.

What do you mean when you say criminal? Hypothetically someone has complete cardiac arrest, a non physician that has been doing cpr can not get things started and as a last attempt does open cardiac massage ( something 98% of physicians probably couldn't do). Let's say he is successful, the ambulance drives up and the patient is taken to the hospital and survives. I know, highly unlikely stuff. So what crime was committed? Assault? Wouldn't all of these things be covered by good sam law? Now civil suit is different. All hypothetical of course.

Rendering care that is outside what you are allowed to do under the Texas EMS statutes is a criminal offense. In your straw man hypothetical the jury would have to decide the case if the MD was brought up on charges. My comments were regarding EMS professionals, not MDs.

How would it apply to other healthcare professionals such as nurses, physician assistants, and nurse practitioners?

according to the nursing practice act and the ems law nurses, PA's and NP's have no legal standing in the prehospital environment and there fore can act as a layperson only they are not pre-hospital providers and can be criminally charged as well as civilally held responsible to the standard of care as well as the level of training. nurses, pa's and NP's have NO legal standing outside of a hospital, same as a paramedic cannot do a nursing assessment or act as a nurse even though paramedics have more training than nurses in trauma care

[Keith B]

Get back on topic and off the medical discussion.