TexasCHLforum.com

Yes, sorry about that post. I was ignorant of the way the rest of the statue was written. It is much more difficult to 'erase' a statute for legislators than it is to amend it. Rather than elminating a law, they write a new law that makes the previous one obsolete. It USED to be illegal to carry in a church. Rather than erase the law, they just added a statement about it having to be posted with a 30.06 sign.

A great example of this is in the Amendments to the Constitution of the United States:

The 18th Amendment abolished Liqour.
The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment.

The 18th Amendment cannot be 'erased', it's a law. There's just a new law that repeals it.

(This is why lawyers make so much dang money interpreting all of this junk).

Sent info to Keith B.

Please do not take my word for it. There is no big mystery to solve here, any of you can call the Collin County District Attorney's office and ask for yourself.

Collin County District Attorney (972) 548-4323

I called the District Attorney's office and spoke to two investigators, both of which said their OPINION was that the signs are valid and you may not drive your vehicle into the parking lot. He himself said the law was hokey, but in its current form you're going to get arrested.

Just get yourself into a fender bender in the school parking lot and then get ID'd by the cop directing school traffic and we'll all find out once and for all if it's truly enforceable. Until then, these are just words on a computer screen.

Texas DPS website states that the passenger compartment of your vehicle is 'on or about' your person and you are carrying in your vehicle even if in the glove box.

30.06 states 'property', not 'premises'. The parking lot is 'property'.

Do I agree? No. Does the law need to be rewritten to make this perfectly clear one way or another.

CLEARLY it does.

jmra wrote:2. Move your child to an ISD with properly informed officers so you do not have to worry about taking a ride for legal carry.

I agree with you sir, my kids don't attend Plano ISD any longer. I can drive right up to their school and drop them off at the door with my trusty M&P on my hip. I took issue with the signs and started researching the the legality of the signs as a general cause FOR OTHER PEOPLE, not for myself.

I brought up the issue to this forum because I believed Charles and company have legal clout and could bring some attention to the issue. It's a bit disappointing having to defend my own integrity just becuase I brought up the issue.

MasterOfNone wrote:What would you do if the City of Plano decided that you could not carry anywhere in the city? Would you quit carrying to avoid the risk of the ride?

Yes, I would quit carrying in Plano until the issue was resolved, and so would the majority of poeple. My statement is supported by the fact that no one has been arrested in the city of Plano for violating this Plano's implied 'ordinance'. If you're willing to do it, I support you in your cause. By all means, go for it. I've already served my time. After serving 8 years in the military in 2 foreign countries as an Army Combat Engineer, I am obvisously willing to put myself in harms way for what is right.

CHL holders are supposed to obey the law and de-escalate confrontations. If a CHL holder knowingly enters an area a Police Department has specifically stated is off limits, I would call that an escalation. A defiant challenge.

I believe a better way to resolve the issue is through legal channels, not by sitting in a jail cell and having your license revoked.

Keith B wrote: Bottom line, I have carried numerous times on Plano school grounds, and will continue to do so if I not prohibited by the other statutes that limit me from doing so. If you are carrying properly, then they should not even know and there will be no problem.

I've heard this argument multiple times. If you're concealed... etc. What you're failing to consider is if you get into a fender bending in the car pool line in the school parking lot and the LEO thats directing traffic walks over to get ID's and insurance because the other driver is making a stink you're in hot water. Plano is going to send you to jail. Properly concealed or not. If you're good with that, awesome for the rest of us. I look forward to someone beating the rap and getting the signs removed. I only wish you didn't have to take the ride.

hirundo82 wrote: This is as clear an example of an unenforceable §30.06 posting as I can think of. Any agency that tells their officers to arrest people for having a firearm in their vehicle on school property is begging for a lawsuit.

You can be arrested for anything. If you're that afraid of getting arrested for something that isn't illegal but a LEO doesn't like, I'd suggest you not carry a gun.

By all means, you're free to pump your fist in the air and challenge the system. I am happy that we have people to volunteer as test cases. I just don't have the time or the money. If you feel that being arrested by Plano is trivial, go for it. It has nothing to do with whether or not I should carry.

I dedicated 8 years of my life serving my country to make sure we all could carry You're welcome.

srothstein wrote: As for the second problem, you now have an idea what is meant by beating the rap but not the ride. The local police will consider that 30.06 valid and will arrest you. I am sure that any decent lawyer would get the case thrown out of court, if the D.A. took it that far. But for a day to day purpose, the cop's interpretation is what you really need to concern yourself with. It is what determines if you spend a night in the county jail.

FINALLY, some sound advice! Thank you srothstein.

And to all, thank you very much for your consideration and advice. I posted this to make people aware of the situation and to find out if anyone had a clear indication of 'right' or 'wrong'.

To be clear it was never a mistake of any sort to contact law enforcement about this. After all, it is ultimately their initial decision that will affect a CHL holders short term freedom.

Whether or not they are just in following the letter of the law will come further down the road. I have absolutely no interest in becoming a test case in Plano so I contacted SERVERAL levels of law enforcement and got the same answer from each. Don't do it, you will go to jail. That is enforceable enough for me.

Had I only contacted a lawyer, legistator or armchair legal advisor the answer would be "Go ahead! You're clear to enter the parking lot". That advice would have gotten a CHL holder arrested.

My advice? ALWAYS contact a LEO if you want to find out if you're going to go to jail or not. If you don't like his answer, then consult the attorneys, legislators and armchair legal advisors...

MasterOfNone wrote: The property is either government-owned or it is not. If you have a chance, check out the county's website and see who is on the deed.
And 30.05 (criminal trespass) does not have the government property exception.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the Plano Police department disagrees with both of us.

Plano has a 30.06 sign strategically posted at the entrance of every parking lot of every school. I think this is one of those thing you might be able to spend a lot of money to beat in court, but you're not gonna beat the ride.

rtschl wrote:Fedaykin,

You need to read the statute in it's entirety. Notice subsection i of 46.035:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So Church, hosptials, amusement parks have to post a valid 30.06 notice to stop CHL from carrying.

Ron

Yes!! Thank you! Sorry, I kept getting stuck on the stupid verbiage in the statute and forgot about the thing at the end. I remember them explaining this in the class how instead of changing the text of the law they just write more text at the bottom to change the meaning.

Okay Amusement parks, churches. I'm convinced. ...Please keep the Fedaykin bashing to minimum. I've been set straight.

However, I'm not convinced about the school. Mr. Plano cop on the phone consulted with the School district cop standing next to him and said they way the city of Plano interprets the law is that the School grounds are only semi-government (whatever that means) and just like they can kick you off the ground for criminal trespass if you're causing a ruckus, they can post their parking lots and keep CHL's out.

McKnife wrote:It can't be enforced because, as you said, it's a government- owned building. Posting the sign is simply a waste of tax dollars.

For a private business, I believe the sign is valid. However, in that case, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle under the authority of the motorist protection act instead of your CHL.

The texas dps website always has a current copy of chl laws in pdf format available for download. Read where it says churches are off limits, then go down to the end of that section and notice the 30.06 exception.

Hope this helps.

I see what you're saying but the problem I have with the DPS pdf is that its in conflict with the current Texas Penal Code. The Texas Penal Code will be what follows you to court, not the DPS webpage.

MasterOfNone wrote:Churches are off-limits only if 30.06 notice is provided.

Thank you for your response! However, the current Texas Penal Code states that a Church is a prohibited place to carry. Just went to the Texas website and read it.

I have called every level of authority I can think of about this starting with my CHL Instructor. Everyone I've talked to, including Sherrifs, Police Officers, Austin Admin etc. (I even called the Texas Rangers) they all give me the exact same answer.

They don't know.

I even had the local police tell me "If it's concealed, who's gonna know?". I said well what happens if you get into a fender bender in the parking lot and the police show up. Now you're a felon! He said "yeah... that wouldn't be good".

Question 1: Can a public school (which I believe is a government entity) post the parking lot with a 30.06 sign? Well... they already have, but is it legal for them to do so? This effectively prevents a carrying CHL holder from entering the car pool line.

Question 2: The Texas Penal code defines 'premises' as a building or part of a building and even goes on to specifically state that it DOES NOT include a parking lot, public or private drive etc. So how does Grape Vine mills or any other business pull off posting 30.06 in their parking lot?

Question 3: Where is the current Texas Penal code? Every copy I find says you can't carry in a church and I see all of you are carrying in a church.

I am perplexed at the level of non-knowingness I have experience on these three issues. I humbly await a proper education.