Search found 10 matches

by Bulldog1911
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:33 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

RottenApple wrote:
Bulldog1911 wrote:And you call my comprehension into question :headscratch
Not that AndyC needs any help, but.... Ummm. Yes.
The kinetic energy fallacy is a smokescreen which hides the actual ways in which the projectile interacts with tissue. Authors who use "kinetic energy transfer" as an explanation of how a projectile causes a particular injury are missing the crux of wound ballistics, as well as spreading the worst kind of misinformation; that which induces complacency by masquerading as knowledge. How much better off the field would be if the words "kinetic energy" were erased from its vocabulary; then one would be forced to look into the mechanical interactions of projectiles and tissue wherein lies the key to understanding.

Dr Martin Fackler
Ill help you out too...
Authors who use "kinetic energy transfer" as an explanation of how a projectile causes a particular injury

I did no such thing.
by Bulldog1911
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:00 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote:
Bulldog1911 wrote:I've stated a mere fact that my bullet used all it's energy and therefore stopped, where as yours continued out of the body.
No. You didn't simply state a fact - you implied that yours is better because it stopped in the body, and I'd like to know why.
so you're arguing inference over stated fact?
Bulldog1911 wrote:I think a more accurate term would be energy transfer. I think we would all agree that if a bullet stops inside someone then all of that bullets energy has been successfully transferred from the bullet to the BG. If it penetrates through, then it was not all transferred, and for all intents and purposes, wasted.
Above is fact whether you want to believe it or not. Doesn't mean that it's a better bullet, but it's true.
AndyC wrote: Go on - one more time, I'm challenging YOU to tell us why "energy dump" is such a good thing and exactly how it causes more damage - and kindly don't bother wimping out by saying "it used all its energy", because that means zero when it comes to wounds.
I'll once again state (since you have problems comprehending) I've never said "energy dump is a good thing and that it causes more damage." Maybe you inferred that, but you were mistaken.
by Bulldog1911
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:51 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

Are you seriously reading these posts? The words I used were energy transfer. Now you are arguing that energy cannot be transferred?
Never did I say my bullet is better because it used all it's energy. My argument was that it would stop inside the person. The quote you posted from Dr. Fackler does not disprove the fact that energy can be transferred.

And you call my comprehension into question :headscratch
by Bulldog1911
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:02 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote: I didn't say or imply that anything you said was woo-woo junk science; merely that the concept of "energy dump" as proposed by Bulldog is, in fact, junk science.
:roll: pa-lease... Nowhere have I stated that I believe a bullet can magical create it's own energy. I've stated a mere fact that my bullet used all it's energy and therefore stopped, where as yours continued out of the body.

I think we've discovered the whole issue...
AndyC wrote:GrillKing wrote:And I agreed, if you read my posts,
If you don't agree with the facts I state then feel free to post a proof that disproves it, but don't simply attempt to discredit my knowledge by associating me(or crediting me with inventing) this "woo-woo" science.

EDIT:
From the OP:
USA1 wrote: I would be leery of FMJ because I've seen a .380 FMJ round pass
completely through a refrigerator, so my fear would be over-penetration.
If his fear is over-penetration, then a hollow point would definitely be the way to go.
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:13 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote: What we're disagreeing with is the relevance of that bullet stopping - versus the damage that that causes.
We are? :headscratch
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:20 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote:
Energy is a scalar, not a vector ie. it has magnitude only. Once energy is turned into work, we're using it - work is a vector ie. it has magnitude and direction.
Bulldog1911 wrote:You can post as many studies as you would like, but that won't change the laws of physics.
Funny in light of the fact that you're trying to bend the laws of physics to suit your point; energy by itself does zero unless it's put to work. I honestly believe that you simply do not understand that fact of physics.
After reading back through my post's I don't believe I misused the term energy in any way.
AndyC wrote: Two bullets fired at a body 15" thick.
Your bullet penetrates to 6" inside the body and stops - mine penetrates all the way through 15" and exits out the back.
To use your terms, the first bullet may have, as you put it, "expended all its energy" and the one which over-penetrated still had energy remaining - right?

So, while your bullet at 6" deep might have been more efficient in using all its energy (100% usage) versus mine which used say, only 50% - the fact remains that my bullet which penetrated all the way through crushed and destroyed 9" more tissue through the body.

Quite simply, mine did more damage (even though, in your terms, it was less efficient in terms of using all of its energy).

Yours crushed a volume of 2.31 cubic inches of flesh (the volume of a .35 inch dia, 6 inch long cylinder) - mine crushed just under 5.8 cubic inches of flesh (the volume of a .35 inch dia, 15 inch long cylinder).

Quite frankly, if your bullet stopped earlier, it's because it was weaker - despite the fact that "it expended all its energy".
Agreed
AndyC wrote: Would it be even more efficient if your bullet stopped right on the guy's breastbone? Surely it would - it's "exerted all its energy", so it must be good - right?
No, It would be the same efficiency. 100% And that only works in the matrix.
AndyC wrote: Wound size matters - efficient use of energy? Who cares. Efficiency of energy is irrelevant; doing as much physical damage as possible along the way is.
[/quote]

As long as that damage is to the person intended, then I agree. But as I stated before, I don't want to risk collateral damage. I know you don't like the "what-if" game, but suppose the threat was in your house with your kid in the bedroom behind the bad guy? What if it's a skinny crack head 10" thick.

Irregardless (yes, that's a word), Just giving my 2 cents.
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:53 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote: Oh - we're playing the "what if" game now.
Isn't that the basis for most of these test's and discussions?

I'm not arguing weather Dr. Fackler or Andy know their stuff. In fact, I believe they do. My original statement was in regards to the physics of the bullet exerting all of it's energy. Considering Dr. Fackler's knowledge, I don't think he would argue the laws of physics that state an object at rest has 0 kenetic energy???? Therefore if the bullet has come to rest inside someone/something it has exerted all of it's energy. You can post as many studies as you would like, but that won't change the laws of physics.

How the bullet preforms upon impact is a separate issue.
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:07 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

Sputz wrote:
I'm not concerned about a .380 JHP not opening; I'm concerned that it will open too quickly and limit the depth of penetration.
This is my concern as well.

Sputz
Open up too quickly because of the "4 layers of denom" the perp was wearing on a summer day in Texas?
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:05 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

AndyC wrote: As for the FMJ's energy being wasted - heck, who cares? It punched a hole right through the guy's chest, took out his aorta, clipped the spine and exited out of his back. Am I going to moan about "wasted energy" because it's still traveling at, say, 20 fps after exiting his back? Come on - really? :mrgreen:
Well, we could argue for days on the "kinetic energy smokscreen" so I'll let that one go. But, suppose you shoot a BG, and the bullet travels through him and hits an innocent by-standard? You get sued for saving their life. Your defense to the judge would be??? "But did you see how much tissue I tore up in the bad guy"? As opposed to "I made every effort to prevent this by using hollow point rounds which are known to penetrate less than FMJ's.

Guess it's a personal preference. I'll choose JHP's.
by Bulldog1911
Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:08 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?
Replies: 105
Views: 14616

Re: POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

Hornady critical defense for me.
Hornady4.jpg
Re: Energy dump being a myth.
I think a more accurate term would be energy transfer. I think we would all agree that if a bullet stops inside someone then all of that bullets energy has been successfully transferred from the bullet to the BG. If it penetrates through, then it was not all transferred, and for all intents and purposes, wasted.

Re: JHP's Failure to open.
Yes it does happen on occasion. So do FTF's, FTE's etc. There is no way of knowing that every time you pull the trigger it will go bang, and the bullet will preform exactly as it is suppose to regardless of brand. Some brands have proven to be more consistent than others, but still a chance of failure. If the bullet doesn't open up, then it is simply acting as a full metal jacket as opposed to JHP, so what does that matter.

Keep in mind, I'm no ballistics expert.

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