TexasCHLforum.com

jocat54 wrote:

JP171 wrote:actually not Mr. Froggie, as I said way back when, shouldn't need a license at all, but since we have one ya outta follow the law to the morally right path not circumvent the law because you can't meet the texas requirements

Sorry, but for me it had nothing at all to do with meeting Texas requirements (I am squeaky clean ) I can and do meet all of Texas requirements.(And Have)
It was all for my convenience and wallet at the time.

ok I understand that for you it wasn't the requirements but there are threads here that advocate using a Utah or Florida license to circumvent Texas requirements, not really right IMHO. I also agree that it is a bit high for the Texas CHL, as far as convenience well not really a good excuse to me but hey the laws didn't preclude it. However several states disallow already what you and other people are doing or did, Arizona is one if I remember correctly I think Florida is too, they do not allow a non resident license if you live in that state as a permanent resident( Charles explanation aside) if you are a permanent resident of the state you must have a license issued by the state, so why should we be different in that respect? again I dislike having to be licensed but since we are and the law only says if we live here we must be licensed here, why is that such a burden? is it so wrong to have to be licensed in your home state?

actually not Mr. Froggie, as I said way back when, shouldn't need a license at all, but since we have one ya outta follow the law to the morally right path not circumvent the law because you can't meet the texas requirements

hillfighter wrote:

JP171 wrote:

Panda wrote:If the professional license validity is independent of the licensee's state of residence, then holding them up as an example argues that the same independence should exist for CHL reciprocity.

professional licenses are not independent of the state, MD's engineers and nurses EMT's Electricians AC contractors beauticians, all of them are only allowed to practice their craft/vocation in the state that its issued period!

Panda said the licensee's State of residence is what doesn't matter, not what State granted the license.

It makes no difference if they're a permanent Texas resident, a temporary resident, or just passing through. If Texas recognizes their license, moving across State lines doesn't render it invalid. In either direction. The same as CHL now.

A CHL issued by Texas or Florida is valid no matter where the person calls home. On the other hand, a CHL from Oregon is no good in Texas, regardless of whether the person is a resident of Oregon or moved to Texas last month. That makes sense because the qualifications for a license issued by some State are either good enough or they're not, and that holds true even if the person moves from one Texarkana to the other.

actually it does in the case of EMS licenses, can't get one in texas unless your a texas resident and its not valid in any other state nor is any other states license valid here in Texas. if you are a resident of Texas you should have a Texas license for CHL, going as a visitor to another state won't render its invalid if there is a reciprocity agreement with that state only if you become a permanent resident as in abandon your previous residence and become a domiciliary resident of Texas. oh and you both pulled a democrat here, you forgot to include the sentence following the quoted sentence

Panda wrote:If the professional license validity is independent of the licensee's state of residence, then holding them up as an example argues that the same independence should exist for CHL reciprocity.

professional licenses are not independent of the state, MD's engineers and nurses EMT's Electricians AC contractors beauticians, all of them are only allowed to practice their craft/vocation in the state that its issued period! they cannot come to texas and act as whatever professional license allows in the state they are licensed in. you must apply for a reciprocity allowance and obtain your texas license within the allotted time or not do that job anymore, unless you just like paying court costs and fines

Zoo wrote:

JP171 wrote:I agree with the sponsor of the bill that some Texans are in fact using the ambiguity of the law to circumvent the reasonable requirement of Texans to be licensed in Texas. In the world of Emergency Medical Services, Air conditioning and Electricians you have the ability to use the reciprocity clause to obtain a Texas License, not to ignore the requirement to obtain a Texas License. The reality is that all EMT's A/C contractors and Electricians cannot perform the duties attendant to the pertinent Job description unless you have a Texas License period, there is no grace period, no allowance for you to practice under your license from another state, there is however a description of the punishment for violation of the requirement.

So if two EMTs come to Texas to spend time with their grandchildren for the summer, they can't pick up part time work as EMTs in Texas unless they get Texas licenses. Now some people are using that example to argue they shouldn't be able to carry their concealed handguns in Texas without Texas licenses?

What if their daughter is a single mother and came to Texas for work? Suppose she was busy with the new job and caring for her children and didn't make the time to take a CHL class. So now she shouldn't be allowed to carry a handgun to defend herself and the children either.

Wow!

I am not advocating that if you are in texas as a non resident( non domiciliary stable) that you have to have a license from texas. if you have a permanent domicile you should have a texas license. the single mother in your example should have a texas license if she has no plans to return to the state she came here from, her being a single parent is irrelevant to the situation, she could be a pregnant jewish nun of the pagan faith that is purple with green polka dots she should still have to have the texas license. many other states already require a resident of that state to have the license from that state. reciprocity has never meant that you can use a license from another state as a permanent free card to be a resident of texas and not have a texas license.


Oh and not the non texas licensed EMT's cannot no matter if the are nationally registered they must register in texas if they want to work here and pay the fee same as everyone else and get the back ground check. good thing as this has caught several people that had licenses in their home state that had been revolked for felonies or sexual misconduct

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

JP171 wrote:Actually just owning a home in a state does not make you a resident of that state or country, if you abandon your previous residence then you are a resident of the state in which you now reside, but not a citizen of another country. the hassles and headaches would be there no matter the CHL, so again doesn't wash, try moving to another country where there is no CHL, you made the choice live with it or don't move

if you maintain your permanent residence in Florida this law has no effect upon your license, if you sell your home in FL. and become a TX. Resident/citizen the be upstanding and not do an end run around the law that is codified by the USSC.

You refer to being a "resident," but that is not the operative language in either HB481 or Lon Burnam's HB383. Both Bills apply to a Texas domiciliary and that is far different from a mere resident. Tex. Trans. Code §522.003(10) reads "'Domicile' means the place where a person has the person's true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence and to which the person intends to return whenever absent." Unlike your example, one could be absent from Texas for many years, yet still be a domiciliary of Texas. Lawyers have a saying to help people understand the difference between a "resident" and a "domiciliary." "Your residence is where your butt is, and your domicile is where your heart is." Your intent controls when dealing with your domicile.

Here are just a few people negatively impacted by these bills: Texas military personnel stationed in other states, students living out of state for years, construction workers and others whose employment require them to live in other states for extended periods of time. If these people live in a state that requires them to get that state's license (either as a requirement or due to a lack of reciprocity with Texas), then these bills would require them to get two licenses -- Texas and the other state. If these people cannot get back to Texas to take the renewal class, then they simply cannot get or renew a Texas CHL.

So neither HB383 nor SB481 solve a problem, but they certainly would create problems for thousands of Texans.

Also, as already noted, this bill is a "fix" desperately seeking a problem when there is none. There is no rash of armed visitors from Utah, Florida, or any other state committing crimes in Texas. The Texas Constitution (Art. I, Sec. 23) grants the Legislature the power to regulate the wearing of arms, but only with an eye toward crime prevention. SB481/HB383 have nothing to do with crime prevention. The authors never mentioned crime prevention as a motive when they were laying out their respective bills. They didn't even claim to be solving a problem. Rather, they just said "it makes sense." Now that sounds familiar!

Chas.

ok so my terminology was incorrect on domicile and resident according to texas law I do stand corrected, but the point I was trying to make still stands. As far as those who are stationed out of state, working long term or attending school being required to obtain a non resident license from another state we as Texans can't change the other states law, so we pay and play. I do not agree with licensing to begin with, but we have it we have to deal with it and all that goes along with it. taking classes from other states that don't meet the texas requirements or standards to get out of having a texas chl in my mind is wrong. Charles, the bill is flawed I do agree, why not try to get it fixed, the company that does most state testing for professional licenses is country wide, make it part of the bill to go and test in one of these locations for those who cannot return to texas for a class. I do agree that as it stands we have to be licensed, I think we should have to have a license in our home state to carry in our home state. reciprocity should cover us for the reasonable time it may take to get our license when we return to our home state not as a permanent solution to the inability or expense of the texas CHL

Skiprr wrote:

JP171 wrote:I know a lot of people disagree with this law as it is really an infringement, however I believe it is proper in its intent.

I am among those who disagree.

The substantial flaw in your argument is that EMTs, A/C contractors, and Electricians are licensed at the pleasure of a particular state; their specific activities are not protected by the Constitution of the United States of America.

as of this point the USSC has not agreed with the bold part of this, the court has agreed that we have a right to keep and bear arms but not concealed, so this doesn't wash. I don't actually agree with this mind set but it is as so many say the law of the land as it pertains to CHL

Skiprr wrote:But you knew that was coming, so let's get beyond it and go pragmatic.

yes I knew it was coming and even expected it, but its ok

Skiprr wrote:If SB 481 passes, let's consider a scenario. You live and work in Florida, but are transferred to an office in Dallas. You buy a new home in Dallas. As of that purchase the new home becomes your established domicile in Texas (and I hate that the bill points to the Transportation Code for definition of that term). Moving into a new home in a new state and starting a new job involves scores of details and complications and hassles and headaches.

Actually just owning a home in a state does not make you a resident of that state or country, if you abandon your previous residence then you are a resident of the state in which you now reside, but not a citizen of another country. the hassles and headaches would be there no matter the CHL, so again doesn't wash, try moving to another country where there is no CHL, you made the choice live with it or don't move

if you maintain your permanent residence in Florida this law has no effect upon your license, if you sell your home in FL. and become a TX. Resident/citizen the be upstanding and not do an end run around the law that is codified by the USSC.

Skiprr wrote:Do you want this upstanding Florida concealed handgun licensee to lose all his rights as soon as he moves to Texas? With everything else he has to deal with to have to schedule and take a Texas CHL class, apply online, go to a whatever-they're-called-now fingerprint location, and wait 60 days before he can legally carry again?

he doesn't loose his rights as I said before there is no right to carry a concealed weapon as defined by the USSC, and yes I do want him/her to be required to take a Texas CHL class to learn TEXAS law. I don't think that the intent of the law is to remove the ability to carry the weapon, but to require the person to be licensed in Texas and understand Texas law and convert the now out of state license to a non resident and no longer legal in Texas

Skiprr wrote:Frankly, not very business friendly, and Texas is one of the most business-friendly states in the country. We need to keep it that way.

this law has no effect on the business environment here, business does not require a CHL nor does it specifically preclude having a CHL

Skiprr wrote:[How would you feel if the scenario were reversed and you faced the same penalty if you had to move to another state? To be stripped of your concealed carry license until you could obtain one from your new state?

I would expect that I would have to comply with the laws of the state I was a resident in, be it Texas or not. Not be civilly disobedient because I believed that the constitution had a guarantee in it to carry concealed that it doesn't have, I would feel also that I should be proactive and have the law changed to give a person reasonable time to get a license in the state after moving here before removing the ability to carry

Skiprr wrote:[Texas--in particular Gov. Perry--has worked with other states to engender concealed-carry reciprocity. This is a give-and-take proposition. Legislative changes can significantly endanger the reciprocity work already done.

.

Reciprocity does not mean to continue to use an out of state license, it merely means as you visit a state you may continue to exercise the privilege a carrying your concealed handgun

Skiprr wrote:[I've had a Texas CHL for many years, and I also have a Utah license that staggers my renewal date for my TXCHL...just in case.

glad you do have your Texas CHL, your Utah License should be invalid in Texas as you are a Texas resident, you should be allowed to keep the Utah license and use it anywhere that it is honored other than Texas, like umm Utah. As I understand it and Charles can correct me if I understand wrong, but that was the intent of Non Resident licenses to begin with. Being licensed in a state your not a resident in gives you the ability to continue to carry within that state if they do not have reciprocity with Texas

I know a lot of people disagree with this law as it is really an infringement, however I believe it is proper in its intent. My opinion on this is that if you live in Texas you should be licensed in Texas. Yes the cost is substantial, and even onerous but the fact is that reciprocity is for accepting the provisions of the other states resident's license not to circumvent the requirements of a Texas resident license. I agree with the sponsor of the bill that some Texans are in fact using the ambiguity of the law to circumvent the reasonable requirement of Texans to be licensed in Texas. In the world of Emergency Medical Services, Air conditioning and Electricians you have the ability to use the reciprocity clause to obtain a Texas License, not to ignore the requirement to obtain a Texas License. The reality is that all EMT's A/C contractors and Electricians cannot perform the duties attendant to the pertinent Job description unless you have a Texas License period, there is no grace period, no allowance for you to practice under your license from another state, there is however a description of the punishment for violation of the requirement. So all of you that justify the act of ignoring, disregarding and outright flaunting of the law, you should be ashamed for using the 6 year old excuse of well its not a big deal and everyone else does it so I can too or in the 6 YO vernacular, "but Johnny does it"