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RoyGBiv wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:04 pm

howdy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:25 am Look at that middle picture. Sure looks like he has a weapon in his hand.

Watch the video, you can see his empty hand at the start and never pulls a gun throughout. You can see his finger extend.

RottenApple wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:51 am

jerry_r60 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:10 amYou have your scenario of someone uses mean words and pushes you so you pull your gun but don't shoot. You pull it "as a warning" or to be prepared. It's my opinion at that point that you yourself have threatened deadly force and lose any self defense claim.

This would not be true in Texas (given the scenario being discussed). TPC 9.04 states:

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Good callout...thx for that. I've read this many times but still clearly don't have it memorized. Yesterday i was looking up IL law out of interest in this thread and it is different but not sure about the nuances. They did talk about being an aggressor takes away a defense. They also narrowly define the "castle" in their castle doctrine as the home.

03Lightningrocks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:39 am

jerry_r60 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:10 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:50 pm Let's just draw an analogy here. You are walking down the isle in a grocery store when someone approaches you utilizing mean words. They then give you a shove and back away. Would you pull out your gun, shoot them and then be able to claim self defense? I am asking with sincerity. I would not employ deadly force over something like this, but could I? I always considered my firearm as a tool to defend myself or loved ones from a threat to mine or their lives. I don't see harsh words or even a shove a threatening to my life. I would not take a beating as that could kill me. But a simple shove or even a punch and then retreat? Do you folks remember the guy in Florida who was arguing with some woman when her boyfriend/husband approached and punched him to the ground? He pulled his gun, killed the guy and tried to claim self defense. I think he is in jail right now.

In your walmart scenario I do not think you can pull your gun and shoot. A related analogy to this car situation and your walmart one. You have your scenario of someone uses mean words and pushes you so you pull your gun but don't shoot. You pull it "as a warning" or to be prepared. It's my opinion at that point that you yourself have threatened deadly force and lose any self defense claim. Another way to say pull it as a warning is pull it as a threat.

In the case of the car it's a little different state by state I think. In IL I understand your car is not the same as in your house. I understand here in Texas I understand being in your car is like being in your house.

Another interesting question would be, who started it? Does it matter? I have had folks start raging on me and I had no idea what I did to set them off. I always just back away from it if they let me. Maybe the guy in the car was messing with him. Break checking him and speeding up so he couldn't get around him. In my store analogy, if I instigated the fellow who pushed me, I lose my right to use deadly force. No?

IMHO I don't think just words are a justifiable instigation for any physical contact unless a strong case can be made the words were a serious threat. I think the rule of thumb for figuring out who is the aggressor vs the defender is the first one to use actual force as defined in a state's law in a way not justified by the state's use of force laws is the aggressor. Some states may include threat of force.

03Lightningrocks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:50 pm Let's just draw an analogy here. You are walking down the isle in a grocery store when someone approaches you utilizing mean words. They then give you a shove and back away. Would you pull out your gun, shoot them and then be able to claim self defense? I am asking with sincerity. I would not employ deadly force over something like this, but could I? I always considered my firearm as a tool to defend myself or loved ones from a threat to mine or their lives. I don't see harsh words or even a shove a threatening to my life. I would not take a beating as that could kill me. But a simple shove or even a punch and then retreat? Do you folks remember the guy in Florida who was arguing with some woman when her boyfriend/husband approached and punched him to the ground? He pulled his gun, killed the guy and tried to claim self defense. I think he is in jail right now.

In your walmart scenario I do not think you can pull your gun and shoot. A related analogy to this car situation and your walmart one. You have your scenario of someone uses mean words and pushes you so you pull your gun but don't shoot. You pull it "as a warning" or to be prepared. It's my opinion at that point that you yourself have threatened deadly force and lose any self defense claim. Another way to say pull it as a warning is pull it as a threat.

In the case of the car it's a little different state by state I think. In IL I understand your car is not the same as in your house. I understand here in Texas I understand being in your car is like being in your house.

My pure speculation but based on just the first thoughts and feelings that popped in my head watching the video. The guy outside's body language looked fairly relaxed, he didn't appear all amped up "in a rage". The move of his arm into the vehicle was kind of slow. My first thought was the guy in the car had a gun pointing, the guy reaching in tried to push it aside to not point at him.

No evidence inside the car, just what popped in my head watching it. I think this one is tough for the shooter in front of a jury.

Another issue may be if the driver is considered the aggressor. If you consider the guy at the window is talking and the guy in the car points a gun at him, is the guy in the car then the aggressor losing his right to claim self defense in IL?

If neither is forced off the road and they stop voluntarily there would seem to be an expectation that one would approach the other to "talk".