TexasCHLforum.com

baldeagle wrote:

CoffeeNut wrote:

carlson1 wrote:I regret it passed because just like was proposed by myself and many we now have less places we can CC because they have all been educated about proper signage.


I would have rather seen off limit areas disappear.

So why the push for it? If groups like OCT did nothing but damage to the OC cause then why not let them be responsible for killing off OC? Why didn't the NRA and others push for better things rather than going for OC?

I'm not harping on you so please don't take it that way. I just see your sentiment on this forum, and I am starting to share it as well, so if we knew this was possible why did we push for OC?

Charles can answer this better than anyone, but I'll take a stab at it.

Two sessions ago OCT got an absolutely horrible OC bill introduced. The NRA and TSRA would not support it, because it eliminated 30.06 (among other things) and made things worse for everyone. So it died in committee. OCT then loudly proclaimed that NRA and TSRA had sabotaged the bill and were clearly anti-OC. That was false. NRA and TSRA have always been pro-OC, but there were other priorities that were of a higher precedence. (Eliminating or reducing the places that are off limits was very high on the list. So was campus carry.) The idea was to get improvements in CC first, then get OC through, because it would be a lot harder to roll back the other changes afterwards.

But OCT continued to stir the pot, prompting some national chains to publicly state that they would prefer their customers not carry in their stores. (All of us knew that meant nothing with regard to CC, and I'm pretty sure the chains knew that as well. It was a sop to the anti-gun crowd that OCT was getting stirred up and riled up.) Because of OCT we now have Moms Demand Action in Texas, and they routinely point to OCT as "proof" that people with guns are crazy and can't be trusted.

Last session OCT was planning to introduce another OC bill. (I'm pretty sure they did, but Charles can confirm that.) But the NRA and TSRA introduced one as well, because their hand had been forced by OCT. Either we got a good bill through or a bad bill through. That was the choice. Then OCT tried to poison the bill with the Dutton Amendment, which would have killed it. Why? Because for them it was all or nothing. It was only the furious behind the scenes work of the NRA and TSRA that salvaged that, and even then it was passed at the last possible moment in the session.

So now we have OC. Its impact is not yet known, but I believe it's going to be MUCH harder to get off limits places removed now. What's the legislature going to do? Say you can only CC at amusement parks? Sporting events? Racetracks? Bars? Can you imagine the outcry if they allow OC at those places?

It may still be doable. Charles has worked miracles before. But it's going to be much harder. And it may take much longer.

That is why you approach these issues like an adult, with a realistic understanding of the atmosphere within which you are working. Yes, this is Texas. But we have some of the largest cities in the country. And large cities are almost exclusively liberal and opposed to guns. Once OCT came busting through the door rearranging the furniture without even bothering to ask and loudly demanding their "rights" while threatening anyone who opposed them, the atmosphere for positive changes on our gun laws went decidedly negative. It's only because Charles, the NRA and the TSRA have worked diligently in the legislature for over 20 years building relationships, that we were able to accomplish what we did last session, despite the negative influence of OCT.

For those who point to other states that have OC and don't have problems, you can't compare other states to Texas. For one thing, some of those states have always had OC. It's never been illegal to openly carry a handgun in public. So all the recent CC improvements in those states are completely unrelated to OC. In Texas the two are tied together in the public's mind. They're all a part of the "gun nut" faction demanding their rights. Others have recently gotten OC or so-called "constitutional carry", but they don't have big cities like Texas does. Oklahoma's biggest city is OKC, which is barely bigger than Arlington, TX. Phoenix is bigger, but the state is mostly rural and has a long history of gun culture. Alaska? Do I really need to explain that?

Look at gun laws across the country. The more populous the state the stricter the laws. California? A nightmare for gun owners. New York? Same thing. Texas is a glaring exception to that. But we have to be realistic and realize who and what we're working with and what difficulties we have to overcome to get laws passed. In California or New York, OCT would be in jail. There would be no controversy. Frankly I now think "constitutional carry" is dead in Texas. There is no way it will get the votes in the legislature after what OCT has done. Maybe in another ten or twenty years, if OCT dies off. But not until then.

There's an old saying that you don't poop where you sleep. Well, that's exactly where OCT poops, and the stink is rising. (Mods, if that's too much, just remove it.)

I better understand the "all or nothing" sentiment be discussed about OC. It's not with OC supporters per say, but with OCT specifically. I didn't fully understand/know the full back story.

I just feel that any OC support on the forum automatically gest lumped into the OCT/"in your face" crowd which couldn't be further from the truth.

I have lost my desire to eat cornflakes. Every time I do someone pee's in them.

SlowDave wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

LSUTiger wrote:. . . I am sure OC has played a role in speeding up the inevitable. But IMHO, it was only a matter of time before 30.06 was going to inevitably be posted in more and more places as time goes on regardless of OC.

Nope, it wasn't inevitable and in the 18 years since HB2909 passed creating TPC §30.06, there were very few 30.06 signs posted. Some folks are saying there were a lot of 30.06 signs initially, but they came down over the years. This is not the case by any means. The "big ugly signs" were very few and far between.

The OCT antics put the focus on signs and the anti-gunners used it to their advantage. As the OP stated, open-carry supporters are making things worse by complaining about 30.07 signs, or the lack thereof, and we will see more 30.06 and 30.07 signs. They will not come down as time goes by, at least not in significant numbers.

Open-carry supporters who are in the "you're with us or you're against us" camp won't even admit there's a problem now. The few that do claim "this too will pass." No, it won't pass. OC supporters won't let it pass.

Chas.

+1.E6

I respectfully disagree. I have seen the slow steady uptick in postings around Houston and greater metro areas (at least in the places I frequent, not just the retail/restaurant but many Dr./business offices and industrial /commercial/ distribution sites I travel to in my business) since getting TX CHL in 2008. Places that were not posted in 2008 but were posted prior to the passage of OC.

To be a little clearer, perhaps the OCT types of OC supporters won't let it pass. I would think the majority of forum members here who support OC don't fall into that category and will politely and respectfully abide by the law without a spectacle.

I'm not mad, upset or regretful about OC. (I certainly disagree with the new postings and the anti's logic and pandering to hoplophobes/PC, none if it does anything actually make anyone safer, only the false sense of feeling safer while they are actually less safe)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, property rights, business decisions, blah, blah, blah.....they have the right to post, I have the right to take my business elsewhere. Very simple, no arguments, I'm not sure what the anti-CC/OC crowd doesn't get about that.

Politely and respectfully let a business know they are losing business because of it is customer feedback. Anything more, like protesting in front of the store OCT style or blatantly defying signs, like OCing past a 30.06 sign or an invalid 30.07 sign is something different altogether.

So far the only fighting (and real complaining) I see is amongst ourselves not with sign posters. And what are people fighting about most?, people who say they won't frequent places with 30.07 only!

There are two types of LTC's with injured buttocks of which I am neither, those who didn't want OC and were worried about the signs and those who wanted OC and are complaining about the signs (as in causing real problems, not just simple quick customer feedback and moving on).

Personally, I wanted OC. I supported in when it was offered and I expected signs. I had no illusions. (I wasn't sure exactly what to expect on signage in terms of qty, but I can live with the consequences, it was a chance I was willing to take in the cost/benefit equation, more signs/no OC vs more signs/have OC).

The way I see it is the law affects us all and you can have it both ways so no matter which side you are on, if someone else's opinion differs, then your with us or you're against us. You can't support and not support something no matter what the issue is.

I will continue as I always have, abiding by the law and continuing to fight to have our 2A rights restored to a "shall not be infringed" status as our founding fathers intended. (property rights not withstanding)

I will continue to politely and respectfully champion/advocate the 2A cause to anyone willing to listen, I am not an "in your face" type, but I am not afraid to stand up for what I believe, what is right and exercise my rights. Apparently to some that makes you an "in your face" type.

I think their is much confusion over negative activism vs good cause. Because I support the good cause (OC) does not mean I am a negative activist (OCT). So don't lump all Pro-OCers into the OCT crowd. I don't support it for attention, I support it because I feel I can better protect myself because of it. I'm sure some will disagree.

Furthermore, while I am 100% supportive of OC, why other issues weren't pushed ahead of OC (like LTC no prohibited places) was not my call to make. It's not like any of us where going to be against many of the other good gun bills that didn't advance. There has to be a rhyme or reason why some things moved forward and some didn't. (strategy, lack of support/lots of support, backroom deals/compromise.....????).

I'm down with the little bit at a time baby steps approach to changing things, OC could have come later but it didn't, it came when it did.

Perhaps those a little closer to the legislative process could shed some light on that? (It's a rhetorical question because no one is ever willing to honestly discuss these things at least not publicly) I simply got behind what the powers that be were willing to advance upon.

So should the collective we be remorseful??? Sometimes progress comes with growing pains and sometimes to move forward you need risk taking a step back first. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Or something like that. One thing is sure, if you are sitting still your moving backwards. Regardless of where you settle for less than 100% shall not be infringed, someone is there to try to take what you have away from you. So yeah, it's kind of an all or nothing deal, stop fighting for it all or eventually end up with nothing.

I do agree we need to look forward to the next legislative session, re-group, re-prioritize, to see what improvements we can make which should always be the case.

amtank wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

Beiruty wrote:I am surprised that so many posted 30.06 as well as 30.07.

This.

My fiancé and I went to see Star Wars last night. Much to our surprise the theater who was once open to CC has posted both 30.06 and 30.07. Now both theaters in my town has banned LTC holders from carrying.

What brand theater?

Star Cinema Grill for one.

I posted this in another thread, added a few edits, but it applies here as well........

I am sure OC has played a role in speeding up the inevitable. But IMHO, it was only a matter of time before 30.06 was going to inevitably be posted in more and more places as time goes on regardless of OC.

Every time there is an incident that gains national media attention or another gun control push by congress or executive action more and more signs go up. And the more anti-gunners see the signs the more they become educated about them. The more they become educated about them the more they put up.

As these things happen, they get discussed and those who want to feel safe want to do something but they almost always do the wrong something, like putting up signs that create gun free zones instead of the right something like arming themselves and allowing law abiding citizens protect themselves against criminals who don't obey signs or laws.

Why some people would rather just feel safe than actually be safe is beyond me.

It just goes to show that relying on peoples ignorance of posting/not signs is not an effective Pro Gun strategy. Sooner or later the cat will be let out of the bag.

I just think sitting back trying to maintain the status quo is more detrimental to our cause in the long run as the anti gunners continue to chip away at our rights. Sometimes forging ahead can be painful but in the long run we will be better off.

I think an effective way to gain wider support sooner is visibility. When people see me OCing with my wife and 2 kids, hopefully it will help to normalize the idea of having a gun for your family and self protection.

I have several family and friends who are now gun owners, CHL/LTC holders and Pro-2A supporters who were not before. It's because I practice what I preach and have educated them and have provided a visible example.

Like when the discussion turns to LTC and then I reveal my thoughts to them impact of seeing someone who is actually doing it is a tremendous encouragement that they can do it and should do it too!

Educating them about why they should do it, how to do it and removing the media propaganda baloney and replacing it with facts and common sense about gun ownership and the whole process from buying a gun, training, storage, maintenance, carrying, LTC.... they have finally the guts to do it themselves. "