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If the framers had tried to outlaw slavery at the time the United States would never have come to being. Period, end of story. It was discussed at the time and it was a deal breaker. So if we like our constitution with the lovely protection for protection of religion, speech, and the 2nd amendment we have to take the bad with the good. Oherwise I suggest we all brush up on a rousing chorus of "God save the queen" because without the union we would have surely been recolonized by Britain.

You can do your own research on that question, but not even my most Marxist professors said anything but that when I got my degree in history.

Yes, slavery is against the many of the ideals of the constitution and the Declaration of Independence. It also existed in every society that has every been and still exist in some places of the world today. In the western world it was only abolished by the highest ideals of Christian ideas and reformation thought coming together in a brialliant realization that all men are created equal and that owning a man is an unimaginable evil. 600 k Americans died to settle that question. Let's not fight what has already been won.

Now we face a new battle. Do we remain free citizens or do we for comfort sake all become slaves of the state.


Edited to add: as a side note that it is because of North Carolina (a slave holding state) that we have a bill of rights at all. They would not sign on without it. Just food for thought.

Do you know why that section was put into the constitution?

Not to reinforce slavery but rather to limit the influence if it. The slave owning states wanted all the slaves to be counted.....why....more people=more representation. The 3/5 compromise was to limit the influence of those states that had huge slave populations. It did not strengthen slavery or legitimize it, it weakened it.

That was the purpose of the 3/5 compromise.

SewTexas wrote:the problem is the OC crowd doesn't want to compromise. interestingly, they are taking tactics of many liberal groups.

Perhaps there is a reason they do so. I don't really agree with that, but libs have been enormously effective in getting much of their agenda enshrined in law. As an example look at gay marriage it had been forcefully advanced. Those opposed have been successfully marginalized. Even in TX the buckle of the bibe belt it is making vast inroad.

I am not saying I agree with the way OC in TX is going about things. But maybe they are simply following a successful strategy in pushing an unpopular position forward.

jmra wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

jmra wrote:

SewTexas wrote:

jmra wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:Both.

Source?

? what do you mean?

I was asking for a source to support her claim that VA businesses invite OC of both long guns and handguns in their establishments.

Her quote, "One Denny's in the west end likes having between 10-30 OCers every Saturday to count on for breakfast". I found this odd as Denny's has a corporate "no guns" policy.

Walmart has a corporate no guns policy, but for customers it's State law.

Denny's corporate policy is not to allow customers to carry fire arms, much the same as Buffalo Wild Wings.

This one overlooks it for $$.

Additionally the BWW has no signs on the one by my house. Sometimes individual franchisers overlook policies they find distasteful.

I have thought Mr. Cotton to be very reasonable and main stream even on this divisive issue. If he is the one reaching out...then perhaps with persistence there can be progress. Of course if they read here, some if the good he could do with his diplomacy might not be as easy to accomplish.

jmra wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:Both.

Source?

Me. I was there. The long guns were at a barbecue place. Unless you want to say that I am a liar. I don't remember the long guns at Denny's. The fellow that carried the rifle was not there when I went.

jmra wrote: It is my understanding that numerous attempts have been made to reach out to these people in order to resolve this situation and come to a consensus about the best approach to getting OC passed. They simply refuse to budge in their stance. They are fanatics convinced that their way is the only way and and appear to be oblivious to the damage they are causing. In fact they seem to consider the results some kind of victory. They are either delusional or they have another agenda.

If the reach outs have been anywhere near as diplomatic as these forums have been then I am not surprised they told people to stuff it. I might too if I was being called names.

Any of y'all ever come home with a piece of fruit that had those irritating fruit flies in it. They are too numerous and too small to effectively swat. How do you get rid of them? Do you spray the whole kitchen with raid or do you set out a trap with something sweet (we usually use a banana). They are not going to sit down and shut up. So if you want ameliorate their influence and negative effects you are going to have to dialog with them. If you don't like my suggestions, come up with your own. Sit down and shut up is obviously not going to work. Give them a little of what they want (OC dinners and rallies) and get what you can back (no more OC of long guns in Walmart and Taco Cabana).

Both.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

RetNavy wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:
1. Notify police before protests. 2. Ask for reservations at restaurants before OCing. 3. When holding a rally or a protest have large signs describing it as a Open carry rally, so that people see the signs before they see the guns.

All good points... I like #2 the best.... by letting a restaurant know that you are bringing in a large group (i.e. MONEY + tips) hopefully they will see what revenue they could receive instead of losing..

Can't think of many restaurants that would think this is a good idea.
Sorry but keep businesses out of it. It just makes everyone look stupid and is a direct feed to the MotherJones types.

Businesses aren't discriminating. The law is what you're protesting against so protest appropriately.

There are some businesses here in VA that disagree and have been glad to get $$ from us OCers. One Denny's in the west end likes having between 10-30 OCers every Saturday to count on for breakfast.

[quote=]

As far as I'm concerned, *compromise* is what has gotten us into the sorry condition we are currently in. Every attempt at compromise has resulted in the leftists gaining ground and then using that as a point to further assault our 2nd Amendment guaranteed rights. The time for compromise is over. We need to put the leftists on the defensive. We need to take back ground.[/quote]

This is not a compromise with lefties who want to take your guns, but with people who want to carry their guns openly whose tactics are not helping. It is about reasonable people coming together and saying...you want to make political statements. You want to carry openly. Ok. I am not comfortable with all of that but it would help us all if you followed a few reasonable suggestions in your cause. 1. Notify police before protests. 2. Ask for reservations at restaurants before OCing. 3. When holding a rally or a protest have large signs describing it as a Open carry rally, so that people see the signs before they see the guns.

Look y'all are going to have to deal with these guys. They are not going to just shut up and go away. So if you stick your fingers in your ears and say "y'all are crazies I'm not listening" then it is only going to get worse. If you engage them, you have a chance to influence them with more caution and wisdom.

nightmare69 wrote:Here is my thought on the calling ahead. If I owned a business and the OC called to ask I would say no. Businesses are open to make money, OC groups scare away customers and they leave out the door with my potential sale. Even though I support the 2a, I need money to keep my doors open.

Really? You are a restaurante, you have a semi-private patio/party room. You receive a request for a Tuesday evening (when OC dinners are in Richmond) reservation with 50-70 law abiding people coming and you are going to turn that $$ down based on the hope that other people will come in on a not so busy evening. That is your business decision, but not the one I would make.

jmra wrote: I would tell them no for the simple fact that I am pro 2A and their actions are detrimental to the cause - money wouldn't come into play in that decision at all.

This is why there will be more trouble in TX with the OCers. A reasonable compromise was made and rejected out of hand.

This is not a country where we get to tell people to shut it and sit down. This is a nation where dialog can will and must take place. If the 2nd amendment people do not come together in reasonable conversation then a house divided against itself will not stand. The anti's will win and we all lose.

tomtexan wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:What I don't get is here in VA when we have an OC dinner we let the establishment know BEFORE we come. They agree that it is ok with them. That is simple politeness. That is with handguns holstered with retention.......why was this not done here?

If you want to have on OC dinner great! Now make some phone calls and find a place that is ok with that. It sounds like these guys just showed up and scared everyone.

The problem here is that they are doing it with the evil black rifles which are a bit more intimidating. An OC meeting with handguns would be a trip to jail.

Great, OC rifles sounds like a hoot nanny time!......call ahead. Don't just show up and make the place think they are under siege. I am a reasonable person. I love the second amendment. If I owned a restaurante and an known OC advocate called me I would be most amiable to have them frequent my shop, I'd even give them free sodas. However if they just showed up and I did not know them, it would at minimum cause surprise on my part and perhaps panic. All of this could have been avoided with a phone call.

What I don't get is here in VA when we have an OC dinner we let the establishment know BEFORE we come. They agree that it is ok with them. That is simple politeness. That is with handguns holstered with retention.......why was this not done here?

If you want to have on OC dinner great! Now make some phone calls and find a place that is ok with that. It sounds like these guys just showed up and scared everyone.