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by Jumping Frog
Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:36 am
Forum: The Crime Blotter
Topic: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial
Replies: 19
Views: 1889

Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

C-dub wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:There is a guy on a different forum who recounted his experience the first time he was in combat as this:
charliej47 wrote:I can remember being in a firefight and I fired off my entire basic load during the fight and do not even remember reloading. I can remember the Sargent yelling "they are on the wire" and then I remember him asking me if I needed more ammo. All that happened in between is a blur. :shock:
So I can easily see where someone doesn't really know what they are doing until the gun stops going "BANG".
I can totally agree with this, but the guy was outside, came back in, locked the door, walked over to the now helpless BG, stood over him and emptied the gun into him.
The news reports said the video shown at trial had 20 seconds between first shot and last shot fired.

The clerk didn't create the problem. Reports of people being unable to remember how many rounds they shot are absolutely commonplace, to the point that it becomes one of the things we are all warned to not talk about it immediately after a shooting. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
by Jumping Frog
Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:35 pm
Forum: The Crime Blotter
Topic: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial
Replies: 19
Views: 1889

Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

There is a guy on a different forum who recounted his experience the first time he was in combat as this:
charliej47 wrote:I can remember being in a firefight and I fired off my entire basic load during the fight and do not even remember reloading. I can remember the Sargent yelling "they are on the wire" and then I remember him asking me if I needed more ammo. All that happened in between is a blur. :shock:
So I can easily see where someone doesn't really know what they are doing until the gun stops going "BANG".

I'd vote to acquit in self defense cases in most circumstances, including this one.
by Jumping Frog
Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:23 pm
Forum: The Crime Blotter
Topic: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial
Replies: 19
Views: 1889

Re: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

As far as I am concerned, when you pull a gun on someone to rob them you give up your right to not get shot!
by Jumping Frog
Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:32 am
Forum: The Crime Blotter
Topic: Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial
Replies: 19
Views: 1889

Unusual Self-Defense Murder Trial

This started off last November with a news story of a convenient store cashier who had two armed robbers come into the store, threaten the cashier with a gun, and start emptying the cash drawer.

The cashier drew and shot one of the robbers. The other robber while fleeing was throwing shots at the clerk and also a customer who did not realize the store was being robbed.

Seems like self defense, except the the grand jury indicted the cashier for voluntary manslaughter.

Original news story: http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... bbery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What raised eyebrows at the news story was the comment:
John Weglian, chief of the special units division of the prosecutor’s office, said that the issue the grand jury had to consider was whether self defense applied to Mr. Abu-Karsh’s actions throughout the entire incident.

“The issue was that although [Mr. Abu-Karsh’s] conduct was initially justified, the grand jury concluded that his subsequent conduct was not in self defense,” he said.

Mr. Weglian declined to comment on the facts of the case or say what conduct was considered not to be self defense.
:headscratch :headscratch :headscratch

So three months later there was a follow-up news story: http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/1700 ... ing-robber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It shed a little more light on the cashier's conduct:
Bandar Abu-Karsh fatally shot an armed robber Nov. 21 after two men tried to rob him at the Express Carryout on Page Street.

The second suspect, Joe Hunter, ran, but Abu-Karsh ran after him, shooting and missing. Hunter was eventually arrested.

Prosecutors said Abu-Karsh then went back inside and fired more shots at the first suspect, Lamar Allen, 25, hitting him in the head, chest and extremities, eventually killing him.

Toledo Defense Attorney Jerry Phillips said it is not the number of bullets fired, but what order they came in, that most likely matters the most.

The Grand Jury may have determined that the clerk disabled the suspect the first time, but went beyond self-defense with the second round of shots.
Kind of reminds me of the pharmacy in Oklahoma City case (Jim Ersland), where he continued to shoot the thug after he was already down.

Fast forward nine months later for a news story during the trial that includes video from the store: http://www.13abc.com/story/19275425/jur ... r-33-times" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.toledoblade.com/Courts/2012/ ... rmath.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Turns out, the BG had the cashier get on his knees for two minutes. The BG laid his Tec-9 down to empty the cash drawer, so the clerk used his gun to shoot the BG in the head. The other robber fled while shooting.

The clerk went and locked the front door, then came back and shot the BG with his own gun 33 times. :shock:

I am happy to say that the jury acquitted him of all charges. http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=788849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone needs to give him an award for taking out the trash.

Oh, by the way, here is a quick criminal record for the two perps:

Joe Hunter
2-25-2005 Possession of Cocaine
2-25-2005 Trafficking in Cocaine
5-20-2005 Assault F4
2-10-2009 Possession of Cocaine
2-10-2009 Trafficking in Cocaine
2-10-2009 Trafficking in Marijuana
2-10-2009 Aggravated Possession of Drugs
2-10-2009 Aggravated Trafficking in Drugs

Lamar Allen
4-2-2009 Felonious Assault
5-12-2009 Aggravated Assault
9-15-2009 Possession of Cocaine
9-15-2009 Trafficking in Cocaine
9-15-2009 Trafficking in Counterfeit Controlled Substances

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