TexasCHLforum.com

flintknapper wrote: I can share this much however: He stated that "they have No Position" one way or the other concerning Concealed Carry.

He said the sign is leftover from when the location was another business and apparently was put up before the Covert's owned the dealership that is there now.

I will post back when/if I receive anything to add.

Flint

Thanks Flint.
But he can no longer claim he has no position, he is now aware of the sign and how offensive it is to those who wish to carry. He now has a decision to make, either to leave the sign up or to remove it. A decision to leave the sign up reflects a position.

Lucky45 wrote:

Liberty wrote:it seems to prove to me just how strongly they believe in disarming good folks. ........Signs are a public statement that they do not want people carrying guns in their stores. If they were really progun folks, they would not be asking good people to disarm themselves to enter their store.

Hey Liberty,
you have the right to your personal opinions, but I just have one question about your statements pertaining to what I have highlighted. You are concerned about THIS particular business having a 30.05 sign posted, as trying to disarm good folks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sign is not valid to CHL holders and you are NOT REQUIRED to disarm, according to the law. Then you have some people that say , well that is there intent so I will just disarm to be safe.

You are quite correct, and I don't believe there is any legal requirement to disarm. However it is quite clear that the attempt to and request to disarm folks is there. The sign is offensive.

Lucky45 wrote: If that is the case, then why don't we all just build a tall fence around your house and not leave, because you can say that for thousands of business that post "NO GUNS" signs.

I try not to go to any business that willingly posts a no guns sign. (whether they are 30.06 or not) Some signs are required by law. What Covert seems to want to keep folks from packing within their store they have that that right I wouldn't deny them that write. But the sign is clue that the folks are antis and are not CHL friendly. Just because they aren't the smartest antis on the block doesn't mean they deserve our business.

Lucky45 wrote: What is the PURPOSE of PC30.06, then? Are we suppose to stop entering these places now? I have NO arguements with anyone that does not want a gun on their premises. But if they want to exclude CHL holders from they property, then they SHOULD know that the only sign that can do that LEGALLY, is the 30.06.

The nice thing about the 30.06 law. is that it becomes even clearer about which businesses should be avoided.

Lucky45 wrote: Also, the only GOOD FOLKS that would be walking up to a business with a gun would be a CHL holder. Any else carrying a gun would be doing so ILLEGALLY. I would hope that the business has a sign to REMIND THEM of that. And I think that is what this and other businesses are attempting to do. Therefore, I think you are taking instances like this one too personal as far as the RKBA, since you cannot bear arms(not long gun) in public without a license.

While I don't take Covert to seriously, because I wouldn't buy a car from them anyway, they are to far away. and it will be a long while I hope before I am car shopping again. Is it personal? I don't like folks asking me to disarm. I was shopping for cars a few months ago. Believe me most dealers don't find it necessary to post these offensive signs. If I had no choice but to go into the place, I would probably not disarm.

txinvestigator wrote: What I object to is characterizing people who choose to do so as anti 2nd, and characterizing them as not wanting CHL holders business under any circumstances.

I characterize them as being anti CHL, anti RKBA, and anti gun. I do not believe that they will refuse to do business with an unarmed CHL I never said that. Covert doesn't want us and our guns in their store. They expect us to disarm ourselves for the privilege of giving them $20K + of business Its a darned unfriendly attitude if you ask me.


I might have a simplistic view of things, but I see our basic rights as something should be fought for. Some people are our enemy when it comes to the RKBA. They vote against us the polls, and and spread negative attitudes about about guns. The very signs themselves are a means of spreading antigun sentiments. I feel that disarming oneself and entering Covert's would be a concession to their point of view. Obviously you don't agree. I do believe that if they simply removed their sign it would increase their business. You and they should be able to understand that point. Its already cost them one customer. It proves to me that they are willing to sacrifice business for that sign. That is that right, but it seems to prove to me just how strongly they believe in disarming good folks. We only have certain clues which may not be all that accurate. as to whether strangers we do business with are on our side. One of these clues is the posting of signs. Signs are a public statement that they do not want people carrying guns in their stores. When gun unfriendly businesses such as Covert Ford choose to post these signs, they should expect their names to be dragged a little through the mud. They should expect that their actions will cost them some business. The Right to bare arms is very important to a lot of people in Texas, and I must admit they have taken a somewhat courageous stand, because surely they realize that such signs will cost them some business. I don't think anyone stays in business that long could be stupid. Signs are one way of expressing how their stance. If they were really progun folks, they would not be asking good people to disarm themselves to enter their store.

I also think its impolite and rude to ask people to strip themselves of their guns. We are used to Hospitals and School officials being rude and impolite, but new car dealers usually don't make positives efforts to chase business. Shucks, some dealers used to actually give guns away with a new car purchase.

HankB wrote:
I've been to Covert on 183 in Austin . . . the signs I've seen are not valid signs, and may actually have been posted to placate soccer mommies. FWIW, a couple of years ago I was at the parts counter, and a couple of guys who were on break about 20 feet back of the counter were taking target practice with either pellet or airsoft guns, so I'd say Covert's hoplophobia - if it exists at all - doesn't run very deep.

If Coverts decided to placate soccer Mom's they did so at the risk of offending CHLers. I know a few soccer Moms, but I never met one that looks for no gun signs. Typically they are pretty oblivious to the world around them. I've met a few CHLers and all of them look for the no gun signs. I find it hard to believe that many antis really look for those signs even though there are many that love to post those signs and show the world how they really believe. I wouldn't do business with anyone who had a "No Blonds Allowed" either, its not because I'm blond, just that I can find someone friendlier to do business with.
BTW: the 30.05 sign that was reported to be posted was legal at one time

txinvestigator wrote:

Liberty wrote: But when someone posts a no guns sign whether the sign is legally binding or not. They are saying to the CHler and the rest of the world they don't want us pistol packers in their store.

ONLY WHILE YOU ARE PACKING. Please stop trying to make it seem as though SINCE you have a CHL they don't want your business.

If they really wanted CHLers business they would not ask them to disarm. I can't believe that they could be naive enough to not understand how this could be offensive to many CHLers. That some CHLers would rather gpo somewhere else than disarm ourselves.

If they don't want anyone in their store while packing, its obvious that they don't want pistol packers in their store. Maybe they want CHLers that aren't pistol packers. What is the point of having a CHL if you don't pistol pack. One thing is certain Covert doesn't want us and our guns in their store. I just believe in giving my business to those who want it bad enough to let me and my gun in their store. After all it isn't much of a stretch to believe that those who would ban guns from their premises would also work to ban guns in general. Could it be that folks like these are likely Hillary supporters? This is why it is so important just where we spend our money.

I had to buy my cars from Sand Dollar who seems to be gun friendly. Most dealers won't require CHLers to strip themselves of their guns. I think they deserve our business more than the gun banners.. Don't you? I also don't believe in asking my car dealer to disarm himself after all fair is only fair.

and no, I don't hate the Coverts I just can't see supporting their business not when there are so many car dealers who don't have these ridiculous signs.
tear down this sign Mr Covert. Tear down this sign.

Kalrog wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:[Ronald Reagen] There you go again [/Ronald Reagen] The signs don't mean, in any fashion, that they don't want CHLer's business. To keep insisting that does not make it true.

Time to see if I understand the sides on this portion of it.

One side is that 2A means that you should be able to carry wherever you want and there is nothing that anyone can do about it and any sign that tries to stop you from doing so is attempting to influence your 2A right.

Side two is that the 2A only limits what the government can do (Fed and/or local) and that a private company can prohibit firearms from their property without infringement of 2A rights.

This is a constitutional amendment argument, not a CHL argument. Enough please. Both arguments have merit.

Actually it is not a 2A arguement. Its about personal choices. They have a right to post what ever signs they wish. My point only point is that we as CHLers also have the right to personal choices based on how businesses wish to make us feel welcome. I never claimed that any business doesn't have any right to post any sign that they want. But when someone posts a no guns sign whether the sign is legally binding or not. They are saying to the CHler and the rest of the world they don't want us pistol packers in their store. I would tend to avoid the antis. They don't want my business and I'm glad to oblige.

txinvestigator wrote: No it doesn't. It means they prefer you leave your gun in the car.

And many CHLers would rather not disarm themselves. Its a simple equation , there are other dealers. They could remove the signs if they want CHLers business. Posting those signs is public statement that the bussiness of those who prefer to carry 24/7 isn't as important to them as some other concerns they may have. I don't know why they are concerned, but it doesn't really matter there are other more gun friendly dealerships.

The same goes for other businesses, There are some folks of principle that refuse to go to Taco Cabana's that have those silly signs. There are just to many other places to spend our money than to give it to those who would disarm us.

anygunanywhere wrote:I really do not understand what the big deal is about private businesses having a gun buster or no gun sign.

They mean nothing to a CHL in Texas and you can walk right in.

Concealed is concealed, right?

I doubt very seriously if it is an insurance requirement. if it was, most businesses would be posting, and most would be 30.06 compliant, because insurance companies are run by lawyers, and lawyers tend to read laws.

Too me it isn't about whether we could legally carry inside or not. Being legal and being welcome are two different things. When they post that sign they indicate that that they don't want us in their place of business. Covert has it stated in his signage that they would prefer that we stay away. When CHLers stay away, we are only complying with their wishes. There are too many car dealers for us to have to put up with this nonsense. and unless Covert understands it is costing them business they won't ever take the signs down.

flintknapper wrote: You are correct.


The "Covert's" are an old "Austin" family and are fine folks. If anyone wants to know where they stand on the 2nd Amendment they can call Rox, Duke or Danay, they'll be happy to tell you.

They can say anything they want, but the signs speak louder than anything they could say.

txinvestigator wrote: That sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think its silly.

I think people need to stand for something. Its good when we put our money where our mouth is. Those who would like to disarm us are my enemy. We don't need to help them make a living. There are plenty of folks who really want our business. If we don't aren't willing to take a stand, who will force the changes we so badly need?