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by VMI77
Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:04 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

WildBill wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I have never taken an IQ test but it's obvious in am not worthy to be associating with you brilliant and humble folks.
I haven't either, not a legitimate one anyway, and I don't think it's a particularly good idea to do so. Whether the results are low or high I don't see the psychological effects as likely to be constructive.

Also, while I won't say they have no value, and while am skeptical of how accurately they measure innate intelligence, they do measure something potentially useful.
IQ, SAT scores and GPA are just numbers. How the numbers are used is more relevant.
Yes, for instance, IQ and SAT scores are highly correlated, and either is a good predictor of the likelihood of successfully completing college --assuming the requisite effort is made.

GPA, not so much. In my opinion GPA is more a measure of relative effort --some combination of effort and intellect where effort is the larger factor. For instance, being more intelligent may allow you to obtain a given GPA with less effort than those of less intelligence. Conversely, greater effort may enable a person to obtain a higher GPA than someone of greater intelligence. In both cases this assumes the GPA is determined within the same curriculum or major at the same institution, and even then such comparisons have their flaws.

There was a guy in my engineering class who had nearly a 4.0 GPA without breaking a sweat. When everyone else was studying he was goofing around watching TV or reading novels. He graduated #1 in the class. We had guys that spent every minute of their free time studying and barely managed to break a 2.0, and many combinations in between.
by VMI77
Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:20 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

mojo84 wrote:I have never taken an IQ test but it's obvious in am not worthy to be associating with you brilliant and humble folks.
I haven't either, not a legitimate one anyway, and I don't think it's a particularly good idea to do so. Whether the results are low or high I don't see the psychological effects as likely to be constructive.

Also, while I won't say they have no value, and while am skeptical of how accurately they measure innate intelligence, they do measure something potentially useful.
by VMI77
Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:53 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

Abraham wrote:VMI77,

No, I haven't seen the movie "Infinity".

I tried to get it through Netflix and it's not currently available.

Shockley came up with the idea that those with IQ's below 100, should voluntarily be sterilized.

It was his conclusion that people with IQ's below 100 that reproduce will eventually dumb down (I'm paraphrasing) the population at large
.

This idea among others created quite a negative stir...
I haven't kept up with the research...but my youngest and I discussed that very topic a few years ago. It seems logical superficially but I don't think the evidence has shown it actually happening. It assumes that two low IQ parents will produce low IQ off spring, and while I haven't studied the matter, I don't think that's the case. If that were true, on the flip side it would mean that to produce an Einstein both parents would have to have 165 IQs.

In reality, two parents with 165 IQs are more likely to produce a child with an IQ in the 120 to 130 range. For the most part it seems IQs tend to revert to the mean so that two parents with 70 IQs are likely to produce a child in the 80-100 range and two parents with 130 IQs are likely to produce a child in the 120 to 100 range. When you look at the distribution of IQ it's clear that both very low and very high IQs are large outliers, so the chances of any two high IQ parents producing a genius or any two low IQ parents producing a very low IQ child are very small.

Realistically, if Shockley was right then given the current population of the planet we'd already be observing the effect. I think the reality is that regardless of intellect, most human beings aren't logical and do what they rightly or wrongly perceive to be in their self-interest rather than what is "smart." I think we can see that in where this country is today. The Founders created a system that tended to align "smart" with self-interest. For over 100 years the progressives have been attempting to replace that system with one that subordinates "smart" to their self-interest.
by VMI77
Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:40 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

puma guy wrote:You can decide where these guys fall in the scale of intelligence. I suspect some of the current generation are not far from these two, for the same reason.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/tw ... your-head/
From the same wiki link on IQ above....someone can be pretty far down the scale and still be functional.

Type of work that can be accomplished:

Adults can harvest vegetables, repair furniture IQ 60
Adults can do domestic work IQ 50
by VMI77
Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:34 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

Dadtodabone wrote:Okay, coming out of the closet, I was a liberal arts major. I earned a B.A., philosophy/history, from UPenn '73. I was a sixth generation legacy admission(matrilinear, yes it makes a difference).
I was then and remain today a liberal in the classical sense, though evolved. What most today consider liberalism is really Marxism/Socialism. True conservatives still hold women as chattel, bathe irregularly, and are tribal in their definition of society.

Edited to add:
How a hick college, cowboy, butter bar(dad) successfully courted a Mainline debutante(mom) during wartime would make a great movie!
Well, for one thing, even in the world of liberal arts, there were still standards in 73. I suspect a good many of today's college students couldn't have gotten into UPenn in 1969. And you're absolutely right, the Marxists have polluted the word liberal, and they're still trading off the label with some of those who are old enough to remember what the word used to mean and haven't keep up with current events.
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:32 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

Abraham wrote:I've read many of Richard P Feynman's books.

He was one of the "Coolest" guys in the world, irrespective of his genius. Bongo playing, adopted Brazilian lover of life.

I am saddened, I didn't get to know him...Carnival participate and lover of things others object to...
Me too....have you seen the movie about his life...."Infinity"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116635/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:30 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

WildBill wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:Wow, I have a degree in Physics and concentrated in Astrophysics and Astronomy.... I like that chart!!!
While I can't comment on the aptitude of the average graduate in those majors there is no doubt whatsoever that only the very brightest with the highest IQs are competitive in those fields.

OTOH, Richard P Feynman had a reported IQ of 124, so either the test didn't accurately reflect his IQ for whatever reason or his IQ not being Einsteinian didn't limit his achievements. And he is said to have done exceedingly well on his Princeton entrance exams.
Have you ever heard of William Shockley, a brilliant physicist? His "competitiveness" and success in business was hampered by his personality.
Yes, I have, and I'm sure the success and competitiveness of many people with high IQs are hampered by their personality. I remember a line in a movie some years back to this effect: "Good at chess, bad at life." I think a case can be made that very high IQ correlates with personality deficits and psychological problems. Or to put it another way, I'd guess a disproportionate number of people with high IQs have coping and personality problems.
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:25 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

Liberty wrote:I find the charts interesting in the fact that an IQ of 100 is concidered median or average. According to the charts even the lowest rated group is at least average.
Only 9% of the population has an IQ above 120. 75% of the population has an IQ less than 109. Generally speaking an IQ in the range of 100-110 is considered necessary for successful completion of college.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:32 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

ScottDLS wrote:Wow, I have a degree in Physics and concentrated in Astrophysics and Astronomy.... I like that chart!!!
While I can't comment on the aptitude of the average graduate in those majors there is no doubt whatsoever that only the very brightest with the highest IQs are competitive in those fields.

OTOH, Richard P Feynman had a reported IQ of 124, so either the test didn't accurately reflect his IQ for whatever reason or his IQ not being Einsteinian didn't limit his achievements. And he is said to have done exceedingly well on his Princeton entrance exams.
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:13 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

chandler583 wrote:Well, I for one did graduate with a STEM degree in Engineering from Texas A&M, I would like to think that a majority of the students that attend that university are above average in being aware of what's going on in the country around them, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I try to pay attention to world events and politicians to hold them accountable, I could careless what jersey shore or the Kardashians are doing. But, then again, I don't think Fireball whiskey is the best alcohol around either, so I may just be an exception to the rule.
Unless it has changed dramatically since my oldest was there about 10 years ago the majority are not informed or aware. As an engineer myself, even though I'm old, I think I can say with confidence that the people you most associated with were in an entirely different intellectual class than the majority of liberal arts students.

You need only look at a distribution of IQ by major to observe the well established intellectual differences between the sciences and the liberal arts....such as they are. Today's liberal arts are not your grandfather's liberal arts. That isn't to say higher IQ necessarily means better informed or less misinformed. My youngest went to law school with plenty of high IQ and misinformed students. Nor does lower IQ necessary mean uninformed or misinformed, though I think it safe to assume some correlation exists between IQ and ignorance.

Image
http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/a ... der-ratio/

Here's a list that omits gender:
Lowest IQs by major:
- Social Work - 103
- Early Childhood - 104
- Student Counseling - 105
- Special - 106
- Home Economics - 106
- Elementary - 108
- Other Education - 109
- Education - 110
- Other Social Science - 110
- Communications - 111
- Business Administration & Management - 111
- Health & Medical Sciences - 111
- Curriculum & Instruction - 111
- Higher Education - 112
- Psychology - 113
- Business - 114
- Other Business - 114
- Sociology - 114
- Performance & Studio Arts - 114
- Social Sciences - 115
- Secondary Education - 116

Highest IQs by major:
- Biological Sciences - 121
- Earth, Atmosphere, & Mar. Science - 121
- Industrial Engineering - 123
- Civil Engineering - 124
- Computer & Information Science - 124
- Chemistry - 124
- Other Humanities & Art - 124
- Physical Sciences - 125
- Banking & Finance - 125
- Electrical Engineering - 126
- Engineering - 126
- Mechanical Engineering - 126
- Other Engineering - 128
- Chemical Engineering - 128
- Economics - 128
- Materials Engineering - 129
- Philosophy - 129
- Mathematical Sciences - 130
- Physics & Astronomy - 133
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:25 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

koine2002 wrote:As one who, until recently, was full time in higher education (I'm still an adjunct) it's a complex problem. However, it's been a steady decline since the 1970s with the ubiquity of Tite IV money and the associated strings attached that are enforced by the recognized accrediting councils. Education is no longer a matter of creating educated citizens who happen to also be employable. It's turned into an employee factory. The first thing to go is fields not deemed <em>directly</em> necessary to employability in the anointed fields (STEM). The humanities, the cradle of western civilization in which the principles that informed our republic's founding, go by the wayside.

The accrediting councils, which are private, are at the mercy of the USDE. Colleges are at the mercy of both, because while accreditation (except in a few states) is not mandatory, Title IV funds don't come unless a school is accredited. No school can survive in the current milieu without taking Title IV money. Some of the longest holdouts have actually caved in.

The school I'm at has 25 metrics that we are accountable to in our accreditation. 6 are directly related to education. About 10 are indirectly related. The remainder are ancillary to actual education. Student retention and long term employability are two major areas that hurt many schools when it's time for reaffirmation. One college in our area (not mine), to meet those demands, laid off a bunch of full time faculty, citing a budget shortfall then turned around and hired as many assistant deans as faculty they laid off. It was all about those areas ancillary to the actual process of education . Schools must now focus on making students happy and sacrificing education on the alter of utility.

This is not just in higher ed, though. I sub a lot. Social studies (in middle school), the histories, government, and economics are a joke. They're most often taught by folks whose primary job is something else (coaching, for instance). It's also only the maths and sciences where great lengths are take to ensure students don't cheat on their ACPs.
For many if not most students today's college diploma is yesterday's HS diploma.

In some ways comparing college graduates today to graduates in their 60s is unfair. HS indoctrination wasn't as bad 40 years ago and far fewer HS grads went to college. Half or more of those in college are intellectually unfit and shouldn't be there in the first place. The only reason they're in college is the availability of easy money, and for most that take the easy money all they have to look forward to is debt servitude.

STEM emphasis may depend on the school. There are plenty of unemployable graduates with degrees in wymn's studies and other social justice degrees.

When you say that no college can survive without taking Title IV money I'd argue that many, as many as half or more, shouldn't survive.

An emphasis on employability is more of an effect than a cause. The decline in standards and quality is an engineered decline right out of the left's playbook authored by Saul Alinsky. The left played the long game and got control of the educational system and now they're in the process of turning out the lights of western civilization.
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:00 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Re: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

randy634 wrote:So true! I work on a college campus, I know.....
My son went to a top law school...it doesn't get much better. While the students were obviously more intelligent they were equally ignorant and misinformed.
by VMI77
Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:25 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History
Replies: 52
Views: 6902

Raising the Dumbest Generation in US History

http://www.goacta.org/images/download/A ... cation.pdf
There is a crisis in American civic education. Survey after survey shows that
recent college graduates are alarmingly ignorant of America’s history and
heritage. They cannot identify the term lengths of members of Congress,
the substance of the First Amendment, or the origin of the separation of powers.
They do not know the Father of the Constitution, and nearly 10% say that Judith
Sheindlin—“Judge Judy”—is on the Supreme Court.
How do Americans amend the Constitution? More than half of college
graduates didn’t know. Almost 60% of college graduates failed to identify
correctly a requirement for ratifying a constitutional amendment.

We live in a dangerous world—but almost 40% of college graduates didn’t
know that Congress has the power to declare war.

College graduates were even confused about the term lengths of members of
Congress. Almost half could not recognize that senators are elected to six-
year terms and representatives are elected to two-year terms.

Less than half of college graduates knew that presidential impeachments are
tried before the U.S. Senate.

Many of the figures may actually understate how poorly our colleges are doing because
older respondents performed significantly better than younger ones. For example,
98.2% of college graduates over the age of 65 knew that the president cannot
establish taxes—but only 73.8% of college graduates aged 25–34 answered correctly.
Most college graduates over age 65 knew how to amend the Constitution—76.7%
answered correctly. But among college graduates aged 25–34, less than a third
chose the right answer, and over half answered that the president must ratify an
amendment, failing to comprehend how the division of powers among coequal
branches protects citizens’ rights.
College GRADUATES. I can't say I'm surprised as my homeschooled son regularly regaled me with tales about the ignorance and stupidity of the vast majority of his fellow students at UT....where most of the top HS graduates in Texas attend. The decline continues. None of this is accidental. It's all by design.

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