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Our culture for years has been kicking the struts out from under the entire structure and is collapsing in on its self for lack of any sort of skeleton. In the process, everything is beginning to look chaotic, random, and even insane.

However, its not that there isn't a new worldview or structure of ideals being promoted to replace the old. They haven't simply burned it all down and forgotten it. The left believes it has something that answers everything and fixes it all.

A godless, empty, future of as many orgasms and pleasures as possible in your short meaningless life in service to the state is their future. That's what they have planned. Enjoy yourself. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die. They know what they propose is devoid of purpose and hope, so they want to fill it with as many distractions and hedonism as possible so you can forget about it for a while.

SewTexas wrote:

TXBO wrote:

VMI77 wrote:Massad Ayoob on open carry: http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/14/massa ... led-carry/

Concealed Means Concealed

If your local license requires concealed carry, keep the gun truly concealed. The revealing of a concealed handgun is seen in many quarters as a threat, which can result in charges of criminal threatening, brandishing and more. A malevolent person who wants to falsely accuse you of threatening them with a gun will have their wrongful accusation bolstered if the police find you with a gun where they said it was. Yes, that happens. Some jurisdictions allow “open carry.” I support the right to open carry, in the proper time and place, but I have found over the decades that there are relatively few ideal times or places where the practice won’t unnecessarily and predictably frighten someone the carrier had no reason to scare.

Well articulated point by Ayoob.... once again. The rest of his ten commandments are just as compelling if anyone hasn't read them.

when my son was little and I was realizing just how different little boys were from little girls I really didn't want to be responsible for a heart attack or accident happening so I started repeating
"don't scare the old ladies or the children unnecessarily "
and we learned it's a decent motto.

cyphertext wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

VMI77 wrote:Massad Ayoob on open carry: http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/14/massa ... led-carry/

Concealed Means Concealed

If your local license requires concealed carry, keep the gun truly concealed. The revealing of a concealed handgun is seen in many quarters as a threat, which can result in charges of criminal threatening, brandishing and more. A malevolent person who wants to falsely accuse you of threatening them with a gun will have their wrongful accusation bolstered if the police find you with a gun where they said it was. Yes, that happens. Some jurisdictions allow “open carry.” I support the right to open carry, in the proper time and place, but I have found over the decades that there are relatively few ideal times or places where the practice won’t unnecessarily and predictably frighten someone the carrier had no reason to scare.

I agree with this. If OC is not the cultural norm, it is easier to conceal and go on about my business. Out where I hunt, it is customary and acceptable for folks to bring their rifles into the local diner instead of leaving them unattended in Jeeps and such... No one bats an eye at a guy with a long gun there. Downtown Dallas has a different reaction.

Do they provide gun racks so you don't have to prop them up by your table?

Actually, yes, there was a wooden rack over in the corner!

cyphertext wrote:

VMI77 wrote:Massad Ayoob on open carry: http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/14/massa ... led-carry/

Concealed Means Concealed

If your local license requires concealed carry, keep the gun truly concealed. The revealing of a concealed handgun is seen in many quarters as a threat, which can result in charges of criminal threatening, brandishing and more. A malevolent person who wants to falsely accuse you of threatening them with a gun will have their wrongful accusation bolstered if the police find you with a gun where they said it was. Yes, that happens. Some jurisdictions allow “open carry.” I support the right to open carry, in the proper time and place, but I have found over the decades that there are relatively few ideal times or places where the practice won’t unnecessarily and predictably frighten someone the carrier had no reason to scare.

I agree with this. If OC is not the cultural norm, it is easier to conceal and go on about my business. Out where I hunt, it is customary and acceptable for folks to bring their rifles into the local diner instead of leaving them unattended in Jeeps and such... No one bats an eye at a guy with a long gun there. Downtown Dallas has a different reaction.

Concealed Means Concealed

If your local license requires concealed carry, keep the gun truly concealed. The revealing of a concealed handgun is seen in many quarters as a threat, which can result in charges of criminal threatening, brandishing and more. A malevolent person who wants to falsely accuse you of threatening them with a gun will have their wrongful accusation bolstered if the police find you with a gun where they said it was. Yes, that happens. Some jurisdictions allow “open carry.” I support the right to open carry, in the proper time and place, but I have found over the decades that there are relatively few ideal times or places where the practice won’t unnecessarily and predictably frighten someone the carrier had no reason to scare.

cyphertext wrote:

VMI77 wrote: What is Sprouts? Never heard of it. Not that it matters since I don't darken the door of any business with a 30.06 sign.

It's a grocery chain that offers organic and natural type foods, but less expensive than Whole Foods Market. https://www.sprouts.com/

cyphertext wrote:

AggieDad15 wrote:
What do you care? Lots of other business did NOT cave in such as KROGER. What ax have you got to grind? s I said if you bothered to READ my post: YOU can do as you please. But stop whining about what **I** do. You're acting like your a WB employee or something LOL. To each his own.

I went back and read the letter from the WB CEO and it is clear that he is addressing it to OC groups... which means that he was pushed into making a statement. Had the OC groups not pushed the issue, it probably would have been a wait and see issue.

You said "lots of businesses" yet you repeatedly say "KROGER"... Kroger is one business... lots of businesses have asked the OC crowd to keep the guns out of their stores. Sonic, Starbucks, Applebees, Chilis, Jack in the Box, Wendys, Arbys, Chipotle, Target, Sprouts (even went one step further and posted 30.06)... that is a lot of businesses, and now add Whataburger to that list.

So, what is your ax to grind? You seem to be PO'd that WB will continue to allow CC but not OC. Would you rather they not allow either? They are trying to make accommodations for all, or at least the majority, of their customers... which is what businesses do. If the issue is continually pushed in Kroger, they will change their mind as well. CHL holders are a minority... last number I saw was less than 3% of Texans have a CHL. To have WB publicly state that CC is welcomed is still a win.

gljjt wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:

Double Naught Spy wrote:For those of you who think that when a business opens their private property doors to the public that they lose some of their private property rights, you are 100% correct.

You are also 100% wrong in thinking that they lose control over the gun issue, however. It is all stipulated in the law. How hard is that to understand? It isn't you who is being discriminated against, but your gun. Your gun has no rights and your right to carry a gun in somebody else's business stops at the door if that is what they wish.

A business loses certain rights being open to the public and the public loses certain rights when going onto the property of another individual or entity.

Explain what rights are lost.

Free speech. Bad mouth a business on their property and see what happens. Continually have vocal outbursts in a movie theater and see what happens. Preach in mall and see what happens.

BobCat wrote:suthdj, no I hadn't read the fine print at the bottom until you pointed it out.

Had to copy the image, paste it in an image editing program and expand it, to even read most of it.

It says that 'the information contained herein is the proprietary and confidential work product of the whataburger system' - and not to share it with anybody who is not a whatburger employee.

So - thanks for pointing out the fine print, but I'm confused.

Why don't they simply post 30.07 instead of putting their employees in the awkward position of giving openly-armed customers verbal notice?

jimlongley wrote:I really don't expect to open carry - much - but one of my reasons for wanting OC is my tendency to work around the house carrying and I hate to have to make the extra effort to conceal in order to make a quick run to the hardware store, or even for my wife's request that I make a "drive by dining" lunch run. I don't tend to use drive through anywhere, because they frequently are in too much of a hurry to get my order right, so even if my bride requests McDonalds I go inside to order. I am considering OCing on January 1st 2016 just for the sake of it.

I think it looks exceedingly strange to be wandering into McD's or Home Depot in a Hawaiian shirt over a sweat soaked t-shirt and jeans, so I would find it convenient to OC. If my bride wants Whataburger (I can take it or leave it, nothing that special about them) I want to be able to walk in with my .45 on my hip, place my order, pick it up, and leave without someone telling me I have to put my gun in my car before I get service.

If that happens, I will ask to escalate to management, card them (no argument, just statement), and never go back. There are several stores in the DFW metromess that I have carded due to their 30.06 signage (valid or not) that I have never gone back to and I have never missed them.

OTOH, Bass Pro, which seems to be the only place around to buy REAL black powder, wrote me a real nice letter and took down their (non-compliant) signage after I carded them.

jmra wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:I have a problem here.

Im not a fan of OC & dont plan to ever OC - but the reality is Whataburger is infringing on 2A rights - and some here are ok with it cuz it doesnt directly affect them....AT THIS TIME...

"Then they came for me"

You may have a problem, but I see it as your understanding of the 2nd amendment and property rights. ...not the stance of a burger joint.

You have a right to own a weapon, and if licensed carry it concealed.. you have NO right to a mediocre burger .. so feel free to carry your weapon .. you can carry it at home on your property, and in many public places, and on others private property unless they inform you otherwise. But the same as you can tell someone to stay off your property, others, even burger joint owners can tell you to stay off thiers.
Personally I would want it no other way.

I never have understood how some 2nd amendment supporters can fail to understand property rights

My opinion is that if you choose to open your doors to the public, you give up some of your property rights. Nobody is making these businesses open their doors to the public. Again if you want invite the public in you must accept the consequences. Just my .02 right or wrong.

This is consistent with the laws for handicapped access & parking. There is a difference between private property and private property intended for public access.

It's ironic to see a small drive in store with 4 parking spaces having to give up 25% of it's parking for the occasional handicapped customer & a big box (Walmart, Lowes) only having to reserve less than 5%.

The handicapped fall into a protected class.

And therein lies the rub....with actual private property rights there wouldn't be any protected classes. If you ran a business that didn't provide access to the handicapped you'd just be out whatever business that caused you to miss. We live in a country with limited property rights so the issue isn't really property rights. That battle has already been lost and the government can tell property owners what they can and cannot do with their property. Now it's just a matter of what the limits are.

So because property rights were wrongfully diminished that makes it ok to diminish them more? That sounds a lot like two wrongs make a right.

EEllis wrote:

VMI77 wrote:The first statement under "response" is a lie.

Because anyone who doesn't let someone do anything, anywhere, at any time must be anti.

mojo84 wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:I have a problem here.

Im not a fan of OC & dont plan to ever OC - but the reality is Whataburger is infringing on 2A rights - and some here are ok with it cuz it doesnt directly affect them....AT THIS TIME...

"Then they came for me"

You may have a problem, but I see it as your understanding of the 2nd amendment and property rights. ...not the stance of a burger joint.

You have a right to own a weapon, and if licensed carry it concealed.. you have NO right to a mediocre burger .. so feel free to carry your weapon .. you can carry it at home on your property, and in many public places, and on others private property unless they inform you otherwise. But the same as you can tell someone to stay off your property, others, even burger joint owners can tell you to stay off thiers.
Personally I would want it no other way.

I never have understood how some 2nd amendment supporters can fail to understand property rights

My opinion is that if you choose to open your doors to the public, you give up some of your property rights. Nobody is making these businesses open their doors to the public. Again if you want invite the public in you must accept the consequences. Just my .02 right or wrong.

This is consistent with the laws for handicapped access & parking. There is a difference between private property and private property intended for public access.

It's ironic to see a small drive in store with 4 parking spaces having to give up 25% of it's parking for the occasional handicapped customer & a big box (Walmart, Lowes) only having to reserve less than 5%.

The handicapped fall into a protected class.

canvasbck wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:I have a problem here.

Im not a fan of OC & dont plan to ever OC - but the reality is Whataburger is infringing on 2A rights - and some here are ok with it cuz it doesnt directly affect them....AT THIS TIME...

"Then they came for me"

I'm sorry, but they are not infringing on my 2A rights. An individual's rights only extend as far as those rights infringing on another's rights. I have the right to keep and bear arms, but not on private property when the owner of said property prohibits firearms on their property.

Before the strawman arguments come out, I also believe that a private business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.