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The Annoyed Man wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Pawpaw wrote:Just to add a little more perspective, this is when I tested my Mossberg 930 SPX with my chosen home defense load... Federal FliteControl #1 buck (LE132-1B). That's 15 pellets in each round.

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I was recently shooting 3" Federal FliteControl Magnum 00 Buck through a Saiga 12 from about 10 feet away. The wad was consistently striking the target within an inch of the buck --pretty much making one big hole in a paper target, but outside the shot. In your image it looks like that didn't happen until you got out to 15 yds. I thought it was a little odd because I hadn't seen this with the 2 3/4 inch buck --then again, that time I was using a KSG. At the same distance the cheap low brass Estate 00 buck (9 pellets) patterned something like your 20 yard shot (and failed to eject every time but once until I changed the gas setting).

I've seen a few people shot with shotguns, and in only one case did the wad penetrate the victim. In that case, the victim was executed on his knees, shot from behind, with the muzzle at contact distance at the base of his neck. We found the wad at the bottom of his chest cavity resting against his diaphragm. He did not survive beyond about 20 minutes after arrival in our ER. But nobody else I ever saw who had been shot with a shotgun had any injury from the wad that I'm aware of. Wads make an impressive hole in paper, but I don't think you can count on them playing much of a factor in the wounding potential of a shotgun in most cases.

I thought that would be the case but it's good to hear it from someone with experience.

Pawpaw wrote:Just to add a little more perspective, this is when I tested my Mossberg 930 SPX with my chosen home defense load... Federal FliteControl #1 buck (LE132-1B). That's 15 pellets in each round.

[ Image ]

I was recently shooting 3" Federal FliteControl Magnum 00 Buck through a Saiga 12 from about 10 feet away. The wad was consistently striking the target within an inch of the buck --pretty much making one big hole in a paper target, but outside the shot. In your image it looks like that didn't happen until you got out to 15 yds. I thought it was a little odd because I hadn't seen this with the 2 3/4 inch buck --then again, that time I was using a KSG. At the same distance the cheap low brass Estate 00 buck (9 pellets) patterned something like your 20 yard shot (and failed to eject every time but once until I changed the gas setting).

LeonCarr wrote:A few points to ponder on doing the hostage rescue/head shot with a shotgun.

Even with extensive testing of a particular buckshot or slug load in a particular shotgun, the flight of all of the components of a buckshot or slug round, even at close range, cannot be 100% predicted.

Unlike a rifle or handgun that shoots one single projectile, the buckshot or slug round contains not only the payload, but the wadding and/or shot cup that flies through the air immediately after or with the projectile. Even with tight patterning buckshot or a slug, the flight of the wadding and/or shot cup can fly in a drastically different manner once it hits the air. This could result in serious bodily injury or even death when the wadding or shot cup, some of which are hard plastic or fiber and traveling at 1600 fps, strikes the hostage instead of striking the hostage taker along with the buckshot or slug.

Even with being a Peace Officer for 20 years, being a Firearms Instructor both privately and for my agency, shooting the shotgun on a weekly basis with 99% of that shooting being with buckshot and slugs, I will not take a hostage rescue shot with a shotgun unless no reasonable alternative exists.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I think you may be looking at it from a different perspective than I am. I'm not really referring to what I'd call a hostage rescue shot. I'd be content with a standoff in that case, or better, would hope that police would be on the scene before shooting even had to be considered. What I won't allow though is for someone to abduct a family member...remove them to a location over which the abductor has complete control....if there is anything I can do to stop it. I'm also not planning to use a shotgun for that purpose and furthermore would only even consider it within a range of about 10 feet.

I do want to understand exactly what the risks are and what the probable outcome would be if such a desperate act had to be taken and have shot many many rounds to experiment. In any case, however unlikely the situation is in the first place, it is even more unlikely that I'd ever find myself in such a situation with a shotgun. But even with a rifle or a handgun, and no matter how accurate I am on the range, I can't predict whether I'd have the necessary control to be able to take such a shot if I was facing the situation in reality. What I do know is that without certainty on the range my chances under stress are greatly diminished.

Pawpaw wrote:With all due respect, I will not take a hostage rescue shot with any weapon unless no reasonable alternative exists.

Absolutely. But in order then to do it you have to have confidence that you can do it.

LeonCarr wrote:The Versatite Wad and the Flitecontrol Wad are the same wad, invented by the same guy, who is now really rich from double dipping on the royalties.

Winchester has come out with a knock-off of the Flitecontrol/Versatite that is used in the Razor Boar XT Buckshot Load. In my tests it does not pattern as tight as the Flitecontrol/Versatite Wad and costs more per round. Bought one box, shot it, won't buy more.

At household ranges any 00 Buckshot will work fine for defense. If the fight goes outside the home use one of the Flitecontrol Buckshot Loads or just switch to a Slug.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I like to be sure that inside my home I can confidently make a head shot without injuring a hostage, so I like the flitecontrol buck inside too. It patterns just a tad larger than a slug at 21 feet. Though I do go back and forth on the slug/buckshot rationale.

KD5NRH wrote:

VMI77 wrote:I couldn't remember the names and was too lazy to look them up. I find names to be harder and harder to remember as I get older, but don't have a problem remembering numbers.

Still remember the serial number of the musket you were issued, don't you?

Come on man, absent our abusive Federal government there was no need for a serial number. I go by bore diameter.

Pawpaw wrote:

VMI77 wrote:I use either Federal flite-tite wad buckshot or the Hornady version when I'm serious. I was shooting some last week and at that distance there was no spread. The hole the 00 buck made was barely distinguishable from the hole made by a 12 ga slug shot for comparison. I'd have to get back about twice that distance to get a spread like the one in the video.

I agree with you, but Federal calls that their Flite-Control wad. Hornady call's theirs the Versatite wad.

You just married the two.

I couldn't remember the names and was too lazy to look them up. I find names to be harder and harder to remember as I get older, but don't have a problem remembering numbers.

I use either Federal flite-tite wad buckshot or the Hornady version when I'm serious. I was shooting some last week and at that distance there was no spread. The hole the 00 buck made was barely distinguishable from the hole made by a 12 ga slug shot for comparison. I'd have to get back about twice that distance to get a spread like the one in the video.