TexasCHLforum.com

Regardless of what's fair or not fair, common sense is in order if you don't want a LEO to shoot you during a traffic stop. I highly doubt there are any cases where a LEO just shoots someone he pulled over for no reason. There may be cases where it's not a particularly good reason, but if you move in such a way that it can be perceived as a threat...reaching into a pocket, reaching under the seat, reaching for the glove box, you're increasing the odds that you might get shot. I don't think the risks are equal..IOW, the LEO's risk of being shot is significantly greater than the risk of an innocent driver being shot by a LEO, so I don't think it's realistic to treat such moves by a driver or passenger in a vehicle as equivalent to the same moves by a LEO standing exposed outside a vehicle.

handog wrote:

C-dub wrote:This thread has taken an interesting turn. Unsnapping or releasing one or two retention devices is not an aggressive act, but does it rise to the level of the threat of deadly force? I see officers rest their hand on the grip of their gun often. Most of the time it is just a place to rest their hand. However, in an instant such as the OP described, that's not the case. There seems to be a fine line here and I'm not sure when or why it is okay for a LEO to cross over it, while I am not.

If the OP reached for his gun and released its retention do you think the LEO would have considered it an act of aggression ?

I don't consider unsnapping or releasing a retention device to be an aggressive act. I consider it a cautious act and I've done it myself in questionable situations.....if I don't need the gun, great, if I do, one less barrier to the draw. I don't think you can equate the two reactions though....I assume the LEO is being cautious and doesn't intend to shoot me, however, what motive would I have as a CHL to unsnap in the face of a LEO other than to signal that I am considering the use of my weapon? I think it would be rightly perceived as an escalation and a threatening move, since you're much less likely to be shot by an officer for no reason than an officer might be shot by a stranger and potential criminal during a traffic stop.

carlson1 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

carlson1 wrote:

StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!

The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation.

I guess all the cops that have stopped me wanted to get killed then, since none of them have acted like the one in the op. None of them were "tense." All of them were had situational awareness. And I don't get your logic. And why would someone intending to shoot an officer hand over ID?

Your logic assumes everyone with a CHL is a stand up man/woman. I believe most Officers will take the safer approach (not making excuses for this officer, but I wasn't there)

No, what I'm saying is that there is a "logic" to every encounter, and that police officers, having experienced many contacts with the public, should have a very developed sense of who is likely to be dangerous based on a number of factors, the CHL being one perhaps, but not the most important. Voice cues, physical cues, facial cues, behavior cues, situational cues, all go together to develop a sense of when a situation is potentially threatening, not threatening, or dangerous. If a police officer lacks the ability to read a situation with at least some accuracy and consistency, the danger for themselves and the public is greatly increased. Based on the description of the OP, the officer in question appears not to have developed the ability to read a situation and make a realistic assessment of the danger to herself.

carlson1 wrote:

StrangeBulge wrote: ... some people are too tense and should not be cops!

The day they stop being "tense" and on top of their duty they will get killed.

It may be as said above she may be new and just not had much contact with people with CHL's. She may have also had a argument with someone right before stopping you. The police have bad days too.

It may be just me, but because someone hands over a CHL does not mean they are Mr. Good Citizen. The CHL could be suspended. (example: many people drive with suspended drivers license)

At least you were not pulled out of the car, disarmed, and searched for "her protection." It doesn't sound like it was too bad. A plus side no citation.

I guess all the cops that have stopped me wanted to get killed then, since none of them have acted like the one in the op. None of them were "tense." All of them were had situational awareness. And I don't get your logic. And why would someone intending to shoot an officer hand over ID?