TexasCHLforum.com

gigag04 wrote:I would suggest anyone jealous of PD pension benefits go through the academy and go get their own.

Free market economy works both ways...you saying that my retirement should be more like yours is no different than me wanting my salary to look like and escalate on the same level as a private sector professional.

And FWIW, I'm not going to be a cop forever. I have been completing my engineering degree by day and working at night. I graduate in a few weeks and have accepted an electrical manufacturer. I'll still hit the streets as a reserve once a month or so, and will probably get into training too...

talltex wrote:How about our own State Legislators? Why would anyone spend the money to run for an office that pays only $600 per month plus $150 per diem while in session ( comes out to $17,000 per year)...because if they hold an office only 8 years, they are entitled to full pension benefits starting at age 60, based not on their own small salaries, but on a Judge's salary of $125,000 per year. If they hold office for just 10 years total, they can start drawing the pension money at age 50! PLUS, they receive lifetime health insurance benefits.

Panda wrote:

VMI77 wrote: I agree completely...notice I put "free market" in quotes. My point was simply that the pay isn't a mystery and is known beforehand and qualified people still choose the job. If there were not enough qualified people to do the job then either the pay would have to be increased or the qualifications lowered. It appears that at the current levels of qualification there are sufficient people choosing to do the job, and that suggests that the level of pay must be either too high or about right, and not too low.

Not just base pay but total compensation. Government pensions are a huge drain on the tax base. Fifty years ago when the taxpayers had pensions from their corporate employers, maybe that was reasonable. However, in the current job market where private sector pensions are rare, its time to eliminate them for public servants too. From dog catcher to senator, they should get no retirement perks except SS and what they save. The same as the people paying their paycheck.

gringo pistolero wrote:

VMI77 wrote:And as far as being paid enough.....we're supposed to have a "free market," and imperfections granted, if the pay wasn't enough to attract enough qualified people to do the job then pay would have to increase.

We're supposed to have a free market but then the unions get involved and the market is no longer free. We often end up with people who are paid more than the fair market value of their work, but believe they are underpaid because they drank the koolaid. Look at teachers for a good example.

Many people think private schools do a better job educating children than public schools. They vote with their wallet when they pay the tuition. But if you look at salaries, private school teachers often get paid less than public school teachers. And why do public school teachers get paid more? It's the unions.

gigag04 wrote:When was the last 7-11 clerk raped?

Eh nm..I don't really care to get into it on the interwebs...

texanjoker wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

gigag04 wrote:My experience with the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that person feels little is due...

I know handog had a situation that would frustrate most of us here so I can view his comments in that filter.

....which is exactly the kind of judgement most cops are called on to make every single day, and which most of the rest of us aren't. I don't want to beat handog up either, because I have posted in his favor many times about that particular incident......which remains an object lesson to ALL CHL holders of what can happen, even unintentionally, if we are not deliberate about concealment.

There are jobs which, in some purely statistical sense, year in and year out, might carry some higher degree of danger.......meaning more people get killed every year doing that job than any other. But, those dangers are related to machinery, hot metal, slippery surfaces, etc., whereas there are NO other jobs (outside of being an infantryman in a war zone) where the greatest danger, every single day, and every single encounter, is from your fellow human beings. That job description alone is the province of LEOs and nobody else's. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and they are not there because they run faster, have bigger teeth or claws, or more powerful muscles than any other animal. Humans are at the top of the food chain because they are more intelligent and more cunning than any other animals, AND humans are the only animals capable of one other thing: deliberately evil intent.

THAT is what makes LEO work so dangerous. How many fishermen, loggers, or airline pilots have to pull over a carload of people who are manifestly up to no good, and process whatever it is they are up to? At 2:00 a.m.? When your nearest backup is 10 minutes away? Several times a night? EVERY shift? Fishermen get killed by weather and the cold ocean. Loggers get cut down by falling timber and out of control equipment. Airline pilots get taken by defective aircraft and weather. But the dangers they face are either impersonal......they're just in the way at the wrong time....or sometimes their own errors, such as pilot error. Cops are different. Their lethal threats are TRYING to hurt them or kill them.........and that makes all the difference in the world. That's why (A) we hold them so much more accountable for screwing up when they do; and (B) why we owe them an extra measure of respect when they don't.....because they face that danger so that we don't have to.......and that's the difference.

I don't think they get paid enough for the responsibility they are asked to shoulder. But, as I have also posted before, I insist on accountability, because the very fabric of our society depends on every LEO rising above the baser instincts many of us would succumb to when pressed out of our comfort zones. Any cop who pulls that off has my unfiltered respect. Every cop who fails to meet the standard has my unfiltered condemnation, because our culture and social stability depend on respect for authority (not the same thing as "subjugation" to authority). Cops who abuse that respect threaten our social order. Those who uphold it are part of the ties that bind us together, and we're all better for it.

It's really that basic.

I'm just as dead if I'm killed by falling timber or a bullet. And statistically, about 40-50% of LEO deaths are from traffic accidents. Yes, traffic stops are potentially extremely dangerous. Potentially. The fact is, deadly encounters are statistically rare --though I imagine unpleasant encounters with idiots and jerks are frequent. Also on the top ten list are convenience store clerks. They make less money that LEO's, generally have no means of defending themselves, have no backup, are often alone at 2AM or 3AM, and are also killed by people, not hot coffee and paper cuts. LEO's absolutely have the more difficult job, but just how are they "more accountable?" If I mistake someone with a water nozzle as having a gun and shoot him I'm going to prison. If I shoot at someone who pulls a gun on me and I miss and hit an innocent bystander, I'm going to prison. This is virtually never the outcome for LE. And as far as being paid enough.....we're supposed to have a "free market," and imperfections granted, if the pay wasn't enough to attract enough qualified people to do the job then pay would have to increase. The market sets the pay just like it does for my job and anyone who doesn't find the pay sufficient and can make more money doing something else is free to do so.

Are you serious? Deadly encounters happen all the time in police work. You just don't read about them unless the officer fires their gun or there is some controversy that makes the news. Fatal statistics are also not a true indicator of the dangers. Many more leo's are shot, stabbed or critically injured, but thankfully survive so they don't make the fatal stat. But hey if you wan't to compare leo's to 7-11 clerks have at it.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

gigag04 wrote:My experience with the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that person feels little is due...

I know handog had a situation that would frustrate most of us here so I can view his comments in that filter.

....which is exactly the kind of judgement most cops are called on to make every single day, and which most of the rest of us aren't. I don't want to beat handog up either, because I have posted in his favor many times about that particular incident......which remains an object lesson to ALL CHL holders of what can happen, even unintentionally, if we are not deliberate about concealment.

There are jobs which, in some purely statistical sense, year in and year out, might carry some higher degree of danger.......meaning more people get killed every year doing that job than any other. But, those dangers are related to machinery, hot metal, slippery surfaces, etc., whereas there are NO other jobs (outside of being an infantryman in a war zone) where the greatest danger, every single day, and every single encounter, is from your fellow human beings. That job description alone is the province of LEOs and nobody else's. Humans are at the top of the food chain, and they are not there because they run faster, have bigger teeth or claws, or more powerful muscles than any other animal. Humans are at the top of the food chain because they are more intelligent and more cunning than any other animals, AND humans are the only animals capable of one other thing: deliberately evil intent.

THAT is what makes LEO work so dangerous. How many fishermen, loggers, or airline pilots have to pull over a carload of people who are manifestly up to no good, and process whatever it is they are up to? At 2:00 a.m.? When your nearest backup is 10 minutes away? Several times a night? EVERY shift? Fishermen get killed by weather and the cold ocean. Loggers get cut down by falling timber and out of control equipment. Airline pilots get taken by defective aircraft and weather. But the dangers they face are either impersonal......they're just in the way at the wrong time....or sometimes their own errors, such as pilot error. Cops are different. Their lethal threats are TRYING to hurt them or kill them.........and that makes all the difference in the world. That's why (A) we hold them so much more accountable for screwing up when they do; and (B) why we owe them an extra measure of respect when they don't.....because they face that danger so that we don't have to.......and that's the difference.

I don't think they get paid enough for the responsibility they are asked to shoulder. But, as I have also posted before, I insist on accountability, because the very fabric of our society depends on every LEO rising above the baser instincts many of us would succumb to when pressed out of our comfort zones. Any cop who pulls that off has my unfiltered respect. Every cop who fails to meet the standard has my unfiltered condemnation, because our culture and social stability depend on respect for authority (not the same thing as "subjugation" to authority). Cops who abuse that respect threaten our social order. Those who uphold it are part of the ties that bind us together, and we're all better for it.

It's really that basic.

bci21984 wrote:

handog wrote:With all due respect and sympathies due to the recent events. "LEO'S under attack" seems a bit dramatic. I'd say LEOs are heroes for providing for their families like the rest of us. As far as putting their lives in "harms way", they are not in the top ten. How about these unsung heroes as well.


The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Fishers and related fishing workers

2. Logging workers

3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers

4. Refuse and recyclable material collectors

5. Roofers

6. Structural iron and steel workers

7. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers

8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers

9. Electrical power-line installers and repairers

10. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs

You ever shot at your trash man for picking up your trash, ever cussed out the airline pilot for flying the plane, or bad mouthed the farmer for growing your produce? Law enforcement is despised by many simply for the uniform they wear and for what it stands for. Many of those despisers have/will/want to harm law enforcement for it also. If you feel so negatively, feel free to suit up and join 'em in an attempt to better the field.