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VMI77

psijac wrote:When I first started this thread I didn't think it would get more than one page. And I didn't think responses would be so heartfelt. I don't have any children but I went to public school.

Public schools are no longer a place of learning because children that don't want to learn ruin it for the children that do. And schools refuse to hold them accountable in a meaningful way. You watch as kids who clearly don't want to be in a classroom and don't want to learn drag down the class with no punishment.

Parents don't pay private schools to let their children in, they pay for the school to keep other children out

In my previous job I participated in a program where employees gave lectures at Corpus Christi high schools. In the same school I found the situation to vary by extremes from one classroom to another. Spoke to one class that was polite, quiet, and disciplined. Spoke to another class that was loud, unruly, and had no respect for the teacher. I'm not going to say it was simply a difference between teachers because I don't know what kind of students made up each class. That was probably part of it, but there were also students attending this school that were criminals by any reasonable definition, and they definitely degraded the educational experience for everyone else.

VMI77

n5wd wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
n5wd wrote:
Keith B wrote:While I think distance learning and computer based courses have their place, school is not all about curriculum. I learned a lot of things like social interaction, friendship, how to fight, how to love, etc. While there have always been bad things at school, playing sports, being in teh band, school clubs, and other activities are a part of my life that I would not want to have missed.
My "classroom" is a distance learning computer lab - and I can agree with you that distance learning has it's place. And, I agree 100% about the social aspects of school, and don't forget all of the folks you've met who might continue to play a big part in your life.
I get it...you're a teacher, so you're biased against homeschooling, and have only seen it from the outside.
If you're going to assign my beliefs for me, then the least you should do is to have some basis for those beliefs that you assign me. Reading my previous posts, completely, and not just taking little bits out of context would be a good start.

I have said many times before that I am a teacher in a public high school. I work in a public school system that is legislatively mandated by the State of Texas. It is required to take all comers. White, black, Asian, Indian, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Wiccan and the kids without religion. We take the jocks and the nerds, guys, girls, and those that aren't quite sure. Straight, gay, etc. The really smart and the not-really smart. Those that have money and two-parent families, and those that are being raised by a single parent who works 20 hours a day. So many of our kids are profoundly disadvantaged through socio-economic, familial, or geographic situations. We don't turn anyone away except for those that violate the laws of the state and are removed from our school system by law.

All that said, a parent or guardian that has the desire and ability to home school should make the decision that they think is best for their family. I have absolutely no problem with someone wanting to home school their child, as long as they do it with a good program that will provide adequate opportunities for the child to learn those things that he/she will need when she/he becomes an adult. I espouse no particular brand or method - I like parochial schools (I even attended a couple while I was growing up in my travels as an Air Force brat), and charter schools give parents a lot of choice, while still being funded by the state, at least in part.

Let me say that again - I think there are some great homeschooling packages or programs out there, and I think there are some that do families and children a disservice. Right now, I've got some kiddohs who were previously homeschooled, and for one reason or another, the parents chose to put them back into the public schools. Some of the kids make the transfer without acquiring any academic deficiencies... others don't. Usually, it's because a kiddoh hasn't taken a course that they should have by their current level, or the course or courses that they did take were not judged acceptably equivalent by the Texas Education Agency, and the kiddoh will take credit recovery courses to earn the credit back. The same thing happens when a kiddoh transfers in from out-of-state - they might not have something they need right now. That's where I come in. Over the last two years of doing this assignment, I've had probably 20 ex-home schoolers and a whole buncha out-of-state or out-of-country transfers in my labs (along with the kids who didn't pass their courses in the first place).

My wife and I also have friends who are homeschooling, and we've both been "visiting teachers" for classes with some of the kids on the occasion that we could help with some special info we had that the parents didn't.

Back to the original point - I am only biased against bad or inadequate homeschooling, just as I am biased against bad or inadequate charter schools, parochial schools, or even public schools! There - do what you will with that, ok?

VMI77 wrote:Because they were homeschooled, both boys got to travel with me on work trips, so they got to see places all over the country, as well as visit numerous museums and historical locations. They got to travel in Europe, Latin America, Mexico, and the Caribbean. They've been to the Louvre and the Antikensammlungen in Munich (along with other museums). They've seen the real Oktoberfest. They saw Nuremberg and the home town of Ablrecht Durer. They've seen endemic poverty in Columbia, cruised Alaskan waters, and passed through the Panama Canal. They've walked the Tower Bridge and seen the Crown Jewels in London, visited the Royal castle in Edinburgh, and walked the streets of Dublin. None of this would have been possible if they had attended public school.
It sounds like you've got some great kids, well rounded and well adjusted. It's obvious that they had some parents that had the resources to be able to give them things that many families couldn't. That's the point that, I think, is missing in a lot of the public school versus charter school versus homeschooling debates (arguments). It takes a family with resources (not just money, but time, space, and careers that allow the parents to be involved on a full-time basis, and not everyone has that ability or resources.

I apologize for any offense given. I agree that not everyone has the ability or resources to home school, but I think that number is a lot smaller than most people might think. For us the hardest part of homeschooling was not the instruction but the difficulty of getting their best performance without the pressure of competition from other students. There are lots of resources available today at little or no cost, including instruction and instructional materials. Through home schooling groups parents that are, say, lacking in mathematical ability, may find parents with such abilities that trade off on teaching duties. We pretty much followed the model of "A River Runs Through It," with emphasis on reading and writing.

My wife is smarter than most of the teachers I had in high school even though she never graduated from high school and has a GED. Yet she taught our youngest how to read and handled most of the instruction for both boys until they were almost teens. Yes, I had to spend a lot of evenings planning what to assign them and reviewing their work, and that took time. In some things they were completely on their own.....for example, neither my wife nor I speak Japanese, so when our youngest was studying Japanese it was through an independent course of instruction. One difference between his experience and mine was that I had the choice in high school to take German, Spanish, or French, and didn't really want to take any of them. He wanted to learn Japanese, and it was entirely his choice.

Also, home schooling allowed them to focus on THEIR interests. I do believe there are fundamentals that all need to learn. One son complained about having to memorize his multiplication tables and it's amusing now that he's tutoring kids in math to hear him say things like "they don't even know their multiplication tables." However, since no one can know everything, once past the fundamentals, people are more motivated when they choose to study something they are particularly interested in. Most of what I learned in high school I learned on my own.

Also, whenever feasible, they learned from original sources instead of politically correct text book drivel filtered through the lens of some leftist professor. So, while they read general history, they also read Thucydides, Marcus Aurelius, Plutarch, Antiphon, Homer, Caesar, Xenophon, Euclid, Herodotus, and Tacitus. They also read works like Quigley's "The History of the World in Our Time," Spengler's "Decline and Fall of the West," "The Education of Henry Adams," and Sandburg's Lincoln (which even though laudatory didn't hide all his blemishes). So to me, home schooling provides the ability to makes choices that are simply impossible in public or private schools.

VMI77

n5wd wrote:
Keith B wrote:While I think distance learning and computer based courses have their place, school is not all about curriculum. I learned a lot of things like social interaction, friendship, how to fight, how to love, etc. While there have always been bad things at school, playing sports, being in teh band, school clubs, and other activities are a part of my life that I would not want to have missed.
My "classroom" is a distance learning computer lab - and I can agree with you that distance learning has it's place. And, I agree 100% about the social aspects of school, and don't forget all of the folks you've met who might continue to play a big part in your life.

Keith B wrote: Sitting a kid behind a computer screen all day to 'learn' would do nothing to help promote how to work with others and potentially turn many into worse social introverts than we already are getting today from kids who do nothing but play video games and play on the Internet.
I've got "super-seniors" in my classes that are doing that exact thing, all day every day, trying to catch up on courses they should have passed the first time through, and I can tell you that, at least in my class, they don't turn into social introverts (they LIVE for the passing periods when they go and meet with their friends) and don't spend a large amount of time playing games or texting. That is, of course, because I and the teachers that work with me in the lab monitor their activities, both electronically and with Management By Walking Around (MBWO). A classroom where the teacher sits behind the desk, reads a paper, and ignores the activities in the classroom is not one you'll find at our school! That's the key - we want them to get done and get graduated - no sense in waiting till this June, get your classes done NOW! And, if I could put you in touch with one of my super seniors, they' tell you that's my daily mantra!

I get it...you're a teacher, so you're biased against homeschooling, and have only seen it from the outside. This "social interaction" baloney is based on a false assumption that I thought had been thoroughly disabused at least a decade ago: that social interaction only occurs in public schools. For one thing, in most places there are homeschooling groups that have regular activities for children. Homeschoolers must also be allowed to participate in public school activities like music and sports since their parents are paying for the public schools too --so that choice is also available. There are also many outside of school activities like soccer, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Little League, piano lessons, karate, etc. My wife and I both attended public school....we weren't impressed.

Both of my children were homeschooled. The youngest never set foot in a formal classroom until he was 16, when he took a few community college courses to familiarize himself with the classroom environment before attending college. He plays piano and guitar and dabbled in violin. He has a black belt in karate. He was reading Spengler's Decline of the West when he was 11 years old. He speaks, reads, and writes in Chinese and Japanese. He was actively recruited by all branches of the military. He double majored at UT Austin, and graduated in four years with two degrees and a 4.0 GPA. He worked in China for an advertising agency and a wind turbine manufacturer and has done subcontracting as an interpreter for a consulting firm. He worked on a unification committee in South Korea. He got a perfect score on the LSAT and was admitted to Harvard Law school, and was offered full scholarships at UT, Michigan, and the University of Chicago.

My older son started homeschooling in 1st grade. We took him out when we realized that the school was destroying his desire to learn and subjecting him to left-wing environmentalist propaganda. He too was actively recruited by all branches of the military. He also has a black belt in karate and his CHL. He has tutored college students in English and writing, and students of all levels in math, and taught classes on the SAT. Most of the other tutors are current or former public school teachers, and all of them are mortified by what has become of the public school system, especially the misplaced emphasis on self-esteem. He frequently tutors children who know virtually nothing but have been convinced by the self-esteem nonsense peddled in the schools that they're geniuses who can do anything. He and the other tutors see many children who have absolutely no realistic sense of their abilities and as a result have completely unrealistic expectations for their future. Their inevitable disillusionment will do nothing positive for our society. This son, while tutoring, is also in the process of completing a training program for employment at a nuclear power plant.

Because they were homeschooled, both boys got to travel with me on work trips, so they got to see places all over the country, as well as visit numerous museums and historical locations. They got to travel in Europe, Latin America, Mexico, and the Caribbean. They've been to the Louvre and the Antikensammlungen in Munich (along with other museums). They've seen the real Oktoberfest. They saw Nuremberg and the home town of Ablrecht Durer. They've seen endemic poverty in Columbia, cruised Alaskan waters, and passed through the Panama Canal. They've walked the Tower Bridge and seen the Crown Jewels in London, visited the Royal castle in Edinburgh, and walked the streets of Dublin. None of this would have been possible if they had attended public school.

VMI77

SherwoodForest wrote:It is an individual choice - limited, or enhanced by each family's particular circumstances and PRIORITIES - but a choice nevertheless.

When parents delegate the RESPONSIBILITY for educating, AND ENSURING THE SAFETY of their children to ANY educational environment - they have the right to expect that assumed RESPONSIBILITY to be diligently PERFORMED with the SAFETY and best interest of their children the FOREMOST PRIORITY of those so entrusted.

And the basis for that "right" is what? I contend just the opposite, that when you delegate what is YOUR responsibility to someone else, you have no cause for complaint when it isn't carried out the way you want it to be. And anyway, you can't delegate responsibility, you can only delegate authority. YOU are ultimately responsible for your children including their education and their safety. Certainly no one else can, or will for that matter, ENSURE your children's safety. Not even the police have such an obligation. I also think it's naive to assume that the foremost priority of school officials is what's in the best interest of YOUR children. Their foremost priority is what's in THEIR OWN best interest --and you have no "right" to expect otherwise.

It's YOUR responsibility to decide what is in the best interest of your children and to carry out this responsibility as best you can --it's not the responsibility of teachers and school administrators. If the school is not safe, and there is nothing you can do to make it safe, then your responsibility is to remove your children from that unsafe environment. As you say, it's a choice made and limited or enhanced by each family's particular circumstances and priorities. We knew large families who got by on less than $24K a year in order to homeschool their children, and Yuppies earning $250K per couple, with one child, who put up with a bad school (about which they complained) rather than have less income or spend the money on a private school.

VMI77

jmra wrote:
psijac wrote:I was thinking if we truly want to stop mas shootings at schools we should just close all schools. Distance learning has matured greatly with the rise of the internet. Home schooling has always been an option. Public schools are failing anyway. This could also prevent bullying and maybe even racism. Since a child at home still needs to be watch this could also be a return to the nucleus family.

Any thoughts?
What utopia world have you been living in? Go sit in front of a school on a staff development day and watch how many parents try to drop their kids off for school. That should tell you how involved parents are in their kids education.
You think we have an education problem now? You can't get parents to meet teachers about their kids grades. You think that parent is going to make sure the kid does his work at home?
Within a decade 80% of the underage population would be illiterate.

Some "educators" think that's ok. Several years ago I was reading a book on "education" and it quoted a past Superintendent of Tulsa schools as saying that kids didn't need to be literate anymore, they could get all the information the needed from television.

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