TexasCHLforum.com

nimravus01 wrote:After Jan 1, the McDonald's and Applebee's in my town posted both 30.06 and 30.07 signs. I'm happy to report that the 30.06 signs at both restaurants have been taken down!

Do you know why they were taken down?

BB62 wrote:if you and others can get past your doomsday outlook and instead choose to be a part of efforts to regain recognition of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

This proves you don't have a clue. Charles and others have been fighting for our rights for decades. Guess who got you open carry?

BB62 wrote:Not all open carriers are wonderful ambassadors

This is the understatement of the century. When's the last time you say a CC proponent making a spectacle of themselves on national TV and frightening legislators to the point that they had panic buttons installed in their offices?

Your perspective is grossly skewed.

sugar land dave wrote:

baldeagle wrote:We have fought to extend our rights for years. Charles Cotton has literally written the laws we presently have. OC would not have passed without Charles' work with the legislature. In the past 20 years licensed gun owners in Texas have amassed an unparalleled record of abiding by the law, proving the anti-gunners false claims about gun carriers wrong. Now, a small but very vocal crowd is running around like bulls in a china shop, riling up the population, demanding rights that they don't even have and insisting that their way is the right way and destroying years and years of hard work.

OC if you want to, but obey the law and act like an adult. Don't destroy 20 years of hard labor through selfishness and ignorance.

For me personally, I'm very angry right now, because I think this behavior is going to make it extremely hard for us to move forward with what for some of us are very cherished goals - the right to carry anywhere a LEO can carry. OC may now make that impossible, especially with the belligerent attitudes of some of the OCers.

As you point out, there is a divide over this issue. But the divide is not a petty one. It's the difference between doing things the right way, the law abiding way, the peaceful way, and doing things by stirring up trouble at every turn, portraying a horrible image for licensed carriers and turning the public against us.

I just wanted to remind that Alice Tripp has been a great help to the cause also. I am sure Charles appreciates her as we should also.

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/op ... e-g/nn56Q/

Thanks, sugar land dave. I keep forgetting to mention Alice, and she has definitely been a large contributor to our fight.

LSUTiger wrote:I better understand the "all or nothing" sentiment be discussed about OC. It's not with OC supporters per say, but with OCT specifically. I didn't fully understand/know the full back story.

I just feel that any OC support on the forum automatically gets lumped into the OCT/"in your face" crowd which couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm glad you understand it better, and I can certainly understand why a pro-OC person feels like they're getting lumped in with OCT on this forum. There's a lot of anger among some of us for what OCT has done to set back our rights over the past four years. And every time they post another video or do another interview, it exacerbates that anger. Many members of this forum, including me, have approached them privately and begged them to tone it down. It has fallen on deaf ears.

When they first started, after CJ was arrested, a lot of forum members were calling him a moron and other things, and I stood up for him. (It's personal, but I owe CJ for something he did that changed my life about 10 years ago.) I continued to defend him until it was no longer possible for me to do so. (Ask TAM and others if what I'm saying is true, if you don't believe me.) Here's an example: http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=799987#p799987

But, as they kept racheting up the confrontations and stirring up the pot, and especially after Moms Demand Action began publicizing OCT's actions to further their cause, many of us became very bitter about what they are doing. It's clear they're not helping. It's brain-dead obvious they're not helping. Yet they refuse to see it, admit it or deal with it.

Some of their members have joined this forum and mocked us, calling us anti-2A (imagine calling the guys that have fought for our rights for TWO DECADES anti-2A, and you get some sense of how completely out of proportion they are.) Their accounts get deleted pretty quickly because they are bald-faced liars and refuse to go by forum rules, just like they refuse to go by society's rules.

So, yes, there's a lot of built-up resentment. And now, we're dealing with a backlash that some of us worry could turn into something much worse. As TAM pointed out, this battle cost a LOT of political capital. It might take us several more sessions to get the ground seeded for the holy grail - carry wherever a LEO can carry. And we might never get it if those idiots don't shut up and stop riling up the public.

The Annoyed Man wrote:We asked for OC. We got OC. Now let us demonstrate through SOBER and VIRTUOUS behavior that we actually merited the confidence which the legislature placed in us. And part of that sober virtuosity includes not screwing things up going forwards, not just for ourselves, but for future generations of Texans. And THAT requires that we STOP thinking in terms of selfish instant gratification, and START thinking like statesmen. It might not be fair, but the eyes of Texas are upon us. BE WORTHY of that.

I bow to your superior wisdom, sir. As always you write with clarity and succinctly.

CoffeeNut wrote:

carlson1 wrote:I regret it passed because just like was proposed by myself and many we now have less places we can CC because they have all been educated about proper signage.


I would have rather seen off limit areas disappear.

So why the push for it? If groups like OCT did nothing but damage to the OC cause then why not let them be responsible for killing off OC? Why didn't the NRA and others push for better things rather than going for OC?

I'm not harping on you so please don't take it that way. I just see your sentiment on this forum, and I am starting to share it as well, so if we knew this was possible why did we push for OC?

Charles can answer this better than anyone, but I'll take a stab at it.

Two sessions ago OCT got an absolutely horrible OC bill introduced. The NRA and TSRA would not support it, because it eliminated 30.06 (among other things) and made things worse for everyone. So it died in committee. OCT then loudly proclaimed that NRA and TSRA had sabotaged the bill and were clearly anti-OC. That was false. NRA and TSRA have always been pro-OC, but there were other priorities that were of a higher precedence. (Eliminating or reducing the places that are off limits was very high on the list. So was campus carry.) The idea was to get improvements in CC first, then get OC through, because it would be a lot harder to roll back the other changes afterwards.

But OCT continued to stir the pot, prompting some national chains to publicly state that they would prefer their customers not carry in their stores. (All of us knew that meant nothing with regard to CC, and I'm pretty sure the chains knew that as well. It was a sop to the anti-gun crowd that OCT was getting stirred up and riled up.) Because of OCT we now have Moms Demand Action in Texas, and they routinely point to OCT as "proof" that people with guns are crazy and can't be trusted.

Last session OCT was planning to introduce another OC bill. (I'm pretty sure they did, but Charles can confirm that.) But the NRA and TSRA introduced one as well, because their hand had been forced by OCT. Either we got a good bill through or a bad bill through. That was the choice. Then OCT tried to poison the bill with the Dutton Amendment, which would have killed it. Why? Because for them it was all or nothing. It was only the furious behind the scenes work of the NRA and TSRA that salvaged that, and even then it was passed at the last possible moment in the session.

So now we have OC. Its impact is not yet known, but I believe it's going to be MUCH harder to get off limits places removed now. What's the legislature going to do? Say you can only CC at amusement parks? Sporting events? Racetracks? Bars? Can you imagine the outcry if they allow OC at those places?

It may still be doable. Charles has worked miracles before. But it's going to be much harder. And it may take much longer.

That is why you approach these issues like an adult, with a realistic understanding of the atmosphere within which you are working. Yes, this is Texas. But we have some of the largest cities in the country. And large cities are almost exclusively liberal and opposed to guns. Once OCT came busting through the door rearranging the furniture without even bothering to ask and loudly demanding their "rights" while threatening anyone who opposed them, the atmosphere for positive changes on our gun laws went decidedly negative. It's only because Charles, the NRA and the TSRA have worked diligently in the legislature for over 20 years building relationships, that we were able to accomplish what we did last session, despite the negative influence of OCT.

For those who point to other states that have OC and don't have problems, you can't compare other states to Texas. For one thing, some of those states have always had OC. It's never been illegal to openly carry a handgun in public. So all the recent CC improvements in those states are completely unrelated to OC. In Texas the two are tied together in the public's mind. They're all a part of the "gun nut" faction demanding their rights. Others have recently gotten OC or so-called "constitutional carry", but they don't have big cities like Texas does. Oklahoma's biggest city is OKC, which is barely bigger than Arlington, TX. Phoenix is bigger, but the state is mostly rural and has a long history of gun culture. Alaska? Do I really need to explain that?

Look at gun laws across the country. The more populous the state the stricter the laws. California? A nightmare for gun owners. New York? Same thing. Texas is a glaring exception to that. But we have to be realistic and realize who and what we're working with and what difficulties we have to overcome to get laws passed. In California or New York, OCT would be in jail. There would be no controversy. Frankly I now think "constitutional carry" is dead in Texas. There is no way it will get the votes in the legislature after what OCT has done. Maybe in another ten or twenty years, if OCT dies off. But not until then.

There's an old saying that you don't poop where you sleep. Well, that's exactly where OCT poops, and the stink is rising. (Mods, if that's too much, just remove it.)

Unocat wrote:I did a tour in Afghanistan for our rights, freedoms, and to fight back against those that would take them away. I am very surprised at this forum in general, I am new, but I thought I was joining a place where people were interested in advancing our rights as enumerated in our countries founding. However I see a lot of CC only people griefing people who are interested in OC. It is always an interesting human dynamic, that not matter how much alike a group is they always find a way to divide over some issue. It saddens me.

Maybe you should take a little more time to read through the posts and get to know the old timers. I don't know a single person on this forum that has ever been opposed to OC. Some of us have argued about the timing, feeling other issues were more important.

Some of us choose not to do it personally, but that's our choice. What we're objecting to is the strident complaints of OC people who complain about signs that don't comply with the law and how they are expected to comply with the law and so should businesses. What we're objecting to is the people who post hint, hint, nudge, nudge, it's ONLY a class C misdemeanor and a $200 fine to ignore a LEGAL sign when this forum has fought long and hard for doing it the right way - following the law and working through the legislative process to accomplish change. What we're objecting to is the people who expect, no demand, that they should not have to show their license when asked and by God no one but LEOs have the authority to ask them for it. What we're objecting to is people who are now complaining that signs are popping up everywhere as if there was no way that could have been foreseen, when it was stated repeatedly on this forum that it would happen.

To say that this forum isn't interested in advancing our rights is about the most insulting thing you could say. Do you know who Charles Cotton is? Do you have any idea what his accomplishments regarding the 2nd Amendment are? We fought for campus carry for years. I ended up retiring before we finally got it passed.

We have fought to extend our rights for years. Charles Cotton has literally written the laws we presently have. OC would not have passed without Charles' work with the legislature. In the past 20 years licensed gun owners in Texas have amassed an unparalleled record of abiding by the law, proving the anti-gunners false claims about gun carriers wrong. Now, a small but very vocal crowd is running around like bulls in a china shop, riling up the population, demanding rights that they don't even have and insisting that their way is the right way and destroying years and years of hard work.

OC if you want to, but obey the law and act like an adult. Don't destroy 20 years of hard labor through selfishness and ignorance.

For me personally, I'm very angry right now, because I think this behavior is going to make it extremely hard for us to move forward with what for some of us are very cherished goals - the right to carry anywhere a LEO can carry. OC may now make that impossible, especially with the belligerent attitudes of some of the OCers.

As you point out, there is a divide over this issue. But the divide is not a petty one. It's the difference between doing things the right way, the law abiding way, the peaceful way, and doing things by stirring up trouble at every turn, portraying a horrible image for licensed carriers and turning the public against us.

parabelum wrote:But you see what you did there, you stated that YOU will never OC, which is your prerogative, but maybe some of us will occasionally OC and if so, personally, I will adjust accordingly. But please, if you or anyone else choose to CC only, respect those of us who, on occasion, may OC.

For what it's worth, I've made my stance on OCT known.

I have no problem with people OCing. I have a problem with people being defiant, demanding their "rights" when they are ignorant about those rights and making such a fuss and stink about it that it hurts the one million others who have chosen to carry, each in their own way.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I will never OC. I think it's stupid to tip my hand to criminals. But I am old enough to sit back, read and think about things before responding. And here's what I see. Some people are reporting locations that have never had signs before now posting both 30.07 and 30.06. So now they can't carry where they used to be able to. The response of the OC crowd? Oh, they're probably false reports. Or oh, you're exaggerating. Or oh, chill out. It's no big deal. The exact same response we got before OC passed when people expressed concerns about heightened scrutiny of signs. IOW, it's the expression of a belief or position, not an expression of evidence.

It won't affect me much. I'm retired. I seldom go out, and when I do, I'm always carrying concealed. If some place has put up 30.06 signs now, I'll adjust and go somewhere else. What irks me is that people can protest loudly about how they support the 2nd Amendment, but when the rubber meets the road they never give a second's thought to how their actions impact the other ONE MILLION people who also carry. They're all about me, me, me. This business has no right to question me for carrying a gun, they say in a huff. Well, sorry, but you're ignorant. There's no other way to put it. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Just today I saw someone arguing that there's a difference between private clubs and public businesses, and public businesses have no right to question them about their LTC. No. You're ignorant. You don't understand the law.

At least for now, OC has made things much worse for gun owners, and they can thank the so-called activists, who chose public confrontation over the tried and true method of working within the legislature. Whether that will improve in the future remains to be seen. But the only victory activists can claim here is a hollow one. Now you can strut around with your gun on your hip in a rapidly decreasing number of places, and you took down the entire one million licensees with you. Congratulations on your "victory".

It only took a week, but I'm now sorry that OC was passed. Maybe I'll change my mind after some time has passed, but right now I'm sick and tired of tons of threads complaining about signs. Before OC passed, there were ample warnings posted in this forum by many respected members that OC would change things and possibly not for the better. OC enthusiasts mocked those posts and claimed it was all based on fear and ignorance. Now that it's passed, we have multiple threads complaining about signs going up everywhere, 30.06 signs going up where none were found before, anger over signs not being legal, angry defiance over being asked to show ID when entering a business OCing.

All of this was predictable. No one should be surprised that some businesses don't allow OC. After all, licensed carriers represent less than 5% of the Texas population. Is it really ridiculous to think that at least 5% of the population might not want to see guns openly carried? That the businesses might want their business just as much as they want ours?

It was equally predictable that OC would raise awareness about proper signage, and some businesses would then decide to post both 30.06 and 30.07 signs.

In the ideal world of the gun activists (which does not exist anywhere in the world) they could carry a weapon openly into any place, and the people that don't like it would either have to shut up or leave. Apparently their rights (in their minds) trump those of every other person in the nation. In the real world, those people have an equal voice and both the police and the authorities have to listen to them and consider their complaints equally with ours.

Maybe this will all sort itself out over time, but right now it's a huge pain that has made this forum a lot less enjoyable to follow.