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baldeagle

Scott Farkus wrote:edit: I brought this up a few months ago and Mr. Cotton's answer was that they (the state agency) can't prohibit the public from carrying but they CAN prohibit their employees from doing it. What sense does that make?

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That makes absolutely no sense. But it confirms even more how important the parking lot bill is. It is beyond reason that an employer can effectively disarm an employee against their will and despite the fact that the state has authorized them to legally carry a weapon.

baldeagle

Scott Farkus wrote:That's an interesting interpretation and I wish it was true. I'd love to rub it into the face of the moron who taught our employee orientation last year who repeatedly insisted after I challenged him that it was not just our agency's policy, it was STATE LAW that we were not allowed to keep our handguns in our cars on their parking lot. Unfortunately, my gut tells me that this is not what it means. For one thing, the term "government entity" is very broad. I suppose state law could apply to counties and cities but the state can't dictate what the federal government does, so I would think that that language on its face would be invalid. But again, I'm not a lawyer and can't say for sure.

Not to be argumentative, but you could just as easily make the case that this section exempts "government entity", however defined, from the 30.06 signage requirements.

I don't know. I'm very confused.

Not surprising. The law can be very confusing to us laymen. You seem to be referring to a federal institution, however. Federal institutions are not controlled by state laws. They are controlled by federal laws.

With regard to the Texas state law and its application to institutions of higher education, however, I looked for a definition of "government entity" in the Texas Statutes. I found this in the Government Code.

(2) "Governmental entity" means:

(A) the state;

(B) a municipality, county, public school district, or special-purpose district or authority;

(C) a district, county, or justice of the peace court;

(D) a board, commission, department, office, or other agency in the executive branch of state government, including an institution of higher education as defined by Section 61.003, Education Code;

(E) the legislature or a legislative agency; or

(F) the Supreme Court of Texas, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, a court of appeals, or the State Bar of Texas or another judicial agency having statewide jurisdiction.

Section 61.003 of the Education Code reads, in part:

(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.

So, this confirms, it seems to me, that public higher educational institutions are governmental entities under the definitions provided for both in the Texas Statutes. That leaves only the proper interpretation of 30.06 to determine if employees of public higher education institutions can secure their weapons in their vehicles in the parking lots of those institutions.

I believe the key words with regard to this question are " It is an exception to the application of this section". So what is "the application of this section"? I believe it is "A license holder commits an offense if [he]...carries a handgun.....on property of another without effective consent and received notice".

Hopefully Charles will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the law says that you can carry a weapon on the property but not the premises of a public institution of higher education with or without the effective consent of that institution. That would mean that, if we hold the Deadly Force Seminar at a public institution of higher education anywhere in the state, attendees can carry their weapons to the event and secure them in their vehicles.

I welcome any lawyers on the forum to correct me if my interpretation of the law is flawed.

baldeagle

dicion wrote:
baldeagle wrote:As I understand the law, having read all of the posts in response to my question, 30.06 (3) (B) (e) exempts an employee of a state-owned educational institution from the requirement to comply with employer rules regarding carrying weapons in one's vehicle and securing them in the vehicle before entering the premises. Therefore, if a campus police officer were to pull such an employee over for just cause, although the employee is required by law to provide the officer with both TX D/L and CHL, the employee would not have violated any laws by carrying and would not be sanctionable by the employer. Even if a state-owned educational institution had a written policy regarding firearms, that policy could not supercede the law, which specifically exempts government entities from the right to enforce a parking lot firearm ban.

If anyone can dispute this reading of the law, I'm perfectly willing to listen.
Maybe....

But in Texas they can fire you for anything. So while they won't claim it's about the gun.... it will be.

That is not something I fear. Not where I work.

baldeagle

As I understand the law, having read all of the posts in response to my question, 30.06 (3) (B) (e) exempts an employee of a state-owned educational institution from the requirement to comply with employer rules regarding carrying weapons in one's vehicle and securing them in the vehicle before entering the premises. Therefore, if a campus police officer were to pull such an employee over for just cause, although the employee is required by law to provide the officer with both TX D/L and CHL, the employee would not have violated any laws by carrying and would not be sanctionable by the employer. Even if a state-owned educational institution had a written policy regarding firearms, that policy could not supercede the law, which specifically exempts government entities from the right to enforce a parking lot firearm ban.

If anyone can dispute this reading of the law, I'm perfectly willing to listen.

baldeagle

sf340b wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have received notice from your employer through the employee manual or "someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice" orally, and the notice includes the parking lot or grounds, aren't you violating 30.06 by having a HG on or about your person?

IANAL, but my answer would be yes. In my case, effective notice has not been provided. There's also the issue that a state-owned educational institution is government property. (More on that later.)

sf340b wrote:If you are not violating 30.06, why is there an effort to get a parking lot bill passed for a non-violation?

Because, at present, property owners have the right, under the law, to disallow the possession of firearms on their property (not just premises), which includes their parking lots. So, effectively, you cannot carry during the week, because you cannot secure your weapon in your car while at work. Furthermore, a store, mall or what have you could ban guns from their parking lot, and you would not even be able to park there, much less shop there.

I think the point of the parking lot bill is that private property owners have every right to ban weapons from their premises, but they should not be able to effectively disarm you by banning them from their parking lots as well.

sf340b wrote:It is my understanding that "notice" for employees is not limited to the specific sign under 30.06.
It is my understanding that "premises" for employees is not limited to the definition in .411.

Again, IANAL, but I think that's incorrect. The premises is the premises, which is the buildings only. The property includes the parking lot.

sf340b wrote:PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chap- ter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that: (A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or (B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart. (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the
owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section: (1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means: (A) a card or other document on which is written language
identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (con- cealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

So, if I'm reading section (3)(B)(e) correctly, a state-owned educational institution cannot prohibit carrying in their parking lots because they are a government entity.

That would mean that I can carry to work, secure my weapon in the car while I'm at work, then carry again when I leave for the day. That's satisfactory to me until campus carry get's passed.

baldeagle

Scott Farkus wrote:I'm not a lawyer and can't speak to whether it is technically legal for you to carry on campus as long as you don't enter a building, but as an employee, you are required to follow the personnel policies of your employer, in this case UTD. I believe in another thread you indicated that they prohibited employees from carrying firearms to work or having them in their cars while parked on UTD property. As I understand it, you have to comply with that or risk being fired on the spot if caught.

I am in exactly the same situation with a different state agency and it is infuriating that they are getting away with it. This is the main reason I have not gotten my CHL yet - I would effectively not be able to carry 5 days a week.

You may be recalling this discussion about Texas Tech.

baldeagle

I work at a state-owned educational institution. If I understand the law correctly, it is legal for me to carry to a state-owned educational institution and secure the weapon in my vehicle. Am I right?

Texas Penal Code Section 46

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(5) in an amusement park; or

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

(f) In this section:

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

Nowhere in 46.035 does it state that it is illegal for me to carry concealed on the campus. However.....

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

(c) In this section:

(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035.

So, it's legal for me to carry to a state-owned educational institution but not at a state-owned educational institution, correct?

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