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That podcast was great. I highly recommend anyone listening to it if you have a hour available to sit down and pay attention. It has me thinking that my next gun will be a P250 in .357 Sig.

VMaxer wrote:This is an excellent point, I think. I listened to a ProArms podcast recently (the link is here) discussing the .357 Sig. Mas Ayoob and others asserted that there's something 'magic' about the 1,400 fps velocity threshold, when a bullet reaches that speed (like the Sig and the 357 mag - and others) that many confrontations end from a non-lethal hit on the bad guy. Perhaps that's why the 125-gr .357 Magnum round was such an effective man-stopper, and the Sig pretty closely duplicates its ballistics. The podcast is really interesting, and I'd recommend a listen.

I have shot my share of .357 Mags, but have yet to try the .357 Sig. Just what I needed...more guns.

According to Ballistics by the inch, the shortest barrel weapon in .357 Magnum that reaches 1400 fps is 4 inches, and the same is true of the .357 Sig. So you wouldn't want to go any shorter than 4 inches if 1400 fps really is "magical" (and I have no reason to doubt that it is.)

Now you've got me thinking I should convert my P226 to .357 Sig.

glbedd53 wrote:Hard to find good comparisons between Ferrari Enzo and Corvette ZR1. From what I've seen it looks like the Enzo might be a little faster top speed but the ZR1 is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile. No two road tests say the same thing and Chevrolet doesn't admit what the ZR1s top speed is but even a Z-06 will go 200 and a ZR1 has a lot more horsepower.

How about this?

danpaw wrote:A Ferarri is not slightly faster than a Corvette. I'm not sure any Ferrarri is as fast as a new Corvette ZR-1.

Z06 - 198mph - ZR1 - 205mph
Ferrari Enzo - 217mph

Should I have used the Veyron (253mph) to make the point?

GhostTX wrote:So why not a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm. etc? Because these guns require bigger frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal. These big guns, although they have slightly better stopping power than the .45 and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control and practical use.

This strikes me as a very odd statement. The .50 S&W has more than three times the velocity of a .45 acp cartridge and 50% (or more) higher weight. To say that it has "slightly better stopping power than the .45" is sort of like saying a Ferrari is slightly faster than a Corvette. It makes me wonder if the Frontsight guys have a clue what they're talking about.

This YouTube video should disabuse them of that notion.

[youtube][/youtube]

Reading this thread has made me realize that there are plenty of opinions about calibers but very little actual knowledge.

danpaw wrote:If you ever have to shoot someone you better hope it is an algebra teacher, otherwise he may not appreciate the awesome power of the 9mm. I'll just keep packing the .45 and leave the 9mms in the safe, but thanks for the input.

The danger of this kind of thinking is that you will be unprepared for an adversary who is hit by your caliber of choice and keeps fighting. If you are truly expecting a "one shot stop", what will you do when that does not occur? Will you hesitate? That hesitation could get you killed.

suthdj wrote:There were some links posted somewhere on this site here is one.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was another with drawings of wound cavity that was good also. Just can't find it.

Thanks for the link. I'm still reading, but this one statement really struck me. "The impact of the bullet on the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon." If you think about it, that makes sense. Newton's law says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The recoil you feel will be the same as the impact of the bullet felt by your adversary. If you think about the recoil you feel when you're shooting, that isn't enough to knock you over or even cause you to lose your balance, unless it's a very large caliber weapon and you are unprepared for the recoil.

Vecco wrote:Hatcher Formula
Used to decide stopping power of a pistol in SD, the best stopping power is 50 with anything going over 55 having diminishing return and more recoil

45 = 60.7
40 = 59.4
10 = 62.1
9 = 39.9
380= 18.3

Mass x Velocity = momentum

Momentum = penetration depth.


Quick list of bullet stopping power based on the formula

http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First of all, I don't really like formulas that include opinions unless you can see how the opinion is derived from actual evidence. Having said that, if you're going to play that game, you need to use an even playing field. That means you get your numbers for each caliber from the exact same ammo.

Using Hollow Point (expanded), which is the most likely SD round used by most people who carry, the numbers are:
45 = 91.989
40 = 68.838
10 = 77.994
9 = 43.190
380= 28.455

I'm not prepared to agree to the statement that 50 is ideal and above that is less than ideal, because I don't know where you got that from, but assuming it's correct, the caliber closest to that ideal number is the 9mm.

MojoTexas wrote:

baldeagle wrote:If you compare energy, expansion and penetration, the 9mm is at least the equal of the .45 acp from a scientific point of view in the size weapon that most people would carry. If you really want to start an argument, the .40 S&W is actually better than either the 9mm or the .45. It has about the same penetration as the 9mm (greater than the .45 acp), the same expansion as both the 9mm and the .45 acp, but higher energy than either of those loads. So theoretically, it should have the greatest stopping power of the three.

That means the 10mm Auto has all three (9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) beat, since it's just a .40 S&W cartridge that is longer with more powder (sort of like the relationship between .38 Special and .357 Magnum). One of these days I'll buy me a Wilson Combat 1911 chambered in 10mm...

MojoTexas

And indeed, the 10mm muzzle energy readings are off the charts compared to all the other calibers except the .357 Magnum. So if stopping power is really your top criteria for choosing a SD weapon, then it seems the 10mm or .357 Magnum would be the best choices.

Vecco wrote:

The 9mm Luger[/url] has a higher velocity than the .45 acp from a 3 inch barrel and roughly the same muzzle energy as the .45.

The only thing the .45 has over a 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is mass, and the 9mm makes up that difference with velocity.

How about this would you rather get hit in the chest with an 80mps baseball or a 30mps 400lb bolder. The velocity of the smaller and lighter (less mass) baseball will not make up for the larger and heaver (more mass) 400lb bolder. Both can kill you, but one will have a better chance of stopping you then the other and is more lethal.

Your comparison is a little off. It would be more accurate to say would you rather get hit in the chest with an 80 mps baseball or a 50mps softball that was just as hard as the baseball. That's a more accurate depiction of the differences in mass and speed. And I would think both would have about the same effect. (Remember, we're talking about a 3 inch barrel. Longer lengths differentiate the two.)

glbedd53 wrote:I have all 3 and 9mm is the one I wouldn't carry. To me 9mm is borderline and when you cut it down to a 3" barrel it's less than borderline.

That makes no sense at all.

The 9mm Luger has a higher velocity than the .45 acp from a 3 inch barrel and roughly the same muzzle energy as the .45. The only thing the .45 has over a 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is mass, and the 9mm makes up that difference with velocity. Which means that, from a 3 inch barrel, both should have about the same stopping power. The longer the barrel, the more the .45 shines. In fact, it isn't until you get to 5 inches that the .45 begins to separate itself from the 9mm, and very few concealed carry weapons have longer barrels than that. (For muzzle velocity, go to the linked pages above and click on the links to the muzzle energy graphs.) My Sig P226 has a 4.4 inch barrel. A Wilson Combat Carry 1911 has a 4.2 inch barrel. So the stopping power of both pistols would be about the same, if you base that on muzzle velocity.

Either pistol is about the largest that most people would use for concealed carry.

If you compare energy, expansion and penetration, the 9mm is at least the equal of the .45 acp from a scientific point of view in the size weapon that most people would carry. If you really want to start an argument, the .40 S&W is actually better than either the 9mm or the .45. It has about the same penetration as the 9mm (greater than the .45 acp), the same expansion as both the 9mm and the .45 acp, but higher energy than either of those loads. So theoretically, it should have the greatest stopping power of the three.

From my reading of the subject, the .45 vs 9mm arguments are based primarily on emotion and not scientific fact. The difference between the two, for most normal SD scenarios is the greater mass and therefore wound channel of the .45, but accuracy matters a great deal more than that. Either one is a perfectly acceptable SD weapon, and the .40 S&W may be a better choice than either of those. The best choice of all, if stopping power is all you care about, is the .357 Magnum, which puts all the others to shame in imparted energy and equals the others in expansion and penetration, while proving that bigger is not always better.