That is pretty much the nut of it. We have already given up freedom (to carry in schools) under the false pretense that it "protects the kids". I believe that if the schools weren't gun free zones they would not be the targets that they have become. So, in fact, it isn't necessary to give up freedoms in order to be safer. The problem with the anti-gun crowd is that they refuse to acknowledge facts. It is a fact that we cannot continue to spend the Federal money at the rate that we are but that fact isn't acknowledged either.dac1842 wrote:The arguments could be construed as against CHL, or against teachers, neither is true. I am all for CHL, geez I am one! Now for the big question, which all of this discussion was geared to get to.Yes this was deliberate.
How much training are we going to provide to a teacher or teachers to provide this protection. IMHO, 10 hours is no where near enough. Are armed teachers, custodians, or volunteers better than nothing at all? Absolutely, but it comes down to training!
Does a rookie police officer have all the tools to make the decision to take a life? How will he react? Yes, he has the tools. We don't know how he will react, but he has been given the training to know how to react. Studies show you will react the way you have practiced. Have you practiced?
Unless each of you have been involved in a shooting situation you do not know how you will react. If your CHL class constitutes your training, then we hope you have some internal fortitude to do what needs to done.
I am a father and grandfather, I have a vested interest in seeing this played out in the best manner possible to protect my grand children in school, in church or where ever they are.
The point was to generate conversation, the question of arming our teachers is not as easy as saying yes. Do we expect them act like a SWAT unit? Nope, but 10 hours in my mind is not enough. For the record, and I know this will ruffle a few feathers, I don't think 10 hours is enough for CHL either, or a 4 hour refresher.
But again that is just my opinion. The better trained you are, the more effective you are. How much training is enough? I don't have that answer.. Obviously we don't want to go through the 400 hours or more it takes to be a police officer. But 10 just a tad low to me.
At the same time, I think we have to do more than arm a teacher or put an officer in every school. It is time to look at controlled access not only to get in the school, but within the school. How far do we take that?
In the Newtown shootings they had controlled access, the shooter shot the glass out and entered.We are a nation that holds our freedoms and rights near and dear to our hearts. How much of our freedoms are we willing to give up in the name of safety? history tells us not much!
food for thought folks.
Be safe.
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Return to “Utah Teachers Concealed Carry”
- Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:36 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Replies: 63
- Views: 9120
Re: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:24 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Replies: 63
- Views: 9120
Re: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
I understand your example but am having a problem with applying it in an active school shooter situation. Somehow, I don't see kids just milling around with someone standing there killing them or where there would be any difficulty in identifying the shooter, unlike in your family gathering description. It would be my hope that a teacher/volunteer caught the active shooter off guard by returning fire. If you believe that accounts of the CHL in the recent Oregon shooting, the active shooter there went off and committed suicide after the CHL pointed his weapon at that shooter without even firing a shot.
As an individual carrying in public, I face the possibility of dealing with a BG around others every day. Being jumped in a Wal-Mart parking lot may not carry the same level of risk as handling a school shooter among kids but some of that same risk remains. Following the logic that bad things can happen in a good shooting would lead to the conclusion that none of us should ever think about trying to defend ourselves in a public place and I don't agree with that.
Edit to fix grammar.
As an individual carrying in public, I face the possibility of dealing with a BG around others every day. Being jumped in a Wal-Mart parking lot may not carry the same level of risk as handling a school shooter among kids but some of that same risk remains. Following the logic that bad things can happen in a good shooting would lead to the conclusion that none of us should ever think about trying to defend ourselves in a public place and I don't agree with that.
Edit to fix grammar.
- Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:44 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Replies: 63
- Views: 9120
Re: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
Could you share with us a specific example? I do understand the potential for someone to inadvertently place rounds inaccurately or through a ricochet but those risks seem much smaller than allowing an active shooter access to a gold fish bowl full of kids.dac1842 wrote:My fears are not unqualified. I was a LEO for 15 years, 3 of those spent on SWAT. I have seen firsthand what happens when the untrained try to react to things they are not qualified to respond to. It aint pretty. Just because we have the right, does not make it right.
Thanks to everyone, this forum shows we can disagree without calling each other names, being insulting and condescending. Gee, perhaps instead of our Congress meeting in person we should have them do their business through a forum with our rules for conduct...
Be safe.
On the other side, Westcliffe, CO has had a program that they call a Posse for over 10 years. They trained deputies first in an active shooter situation and then offered a version of that same training to teachers. I believe that the deterrent effect of having good guys/galls with guns in schools will be far superior to any actual active shooter response. The best gun fight in a school is one that didn't happen.
- Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:30 pm
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Replies: 63
- Views: 9120
Re: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
DA,
You make some very valid points.
1. I agree with you that some school staff should not carry. But among those who you feel fall into that category, how many of them, on their own, would even think about getting a CHL? I'm a former teacher and remember thinking that some of my fellow staff members were a half of a bubble out of plumb. But almost all of those would have fainted at the sight of a gun and would have had a coronary before every putting such an "evil instrument" on their body. That's why I think school staff carry should be voluntary.
2. I fully agree that it should be "on body" only. The little darlings are very creative at finding things and the school day is too dynamic to assume that you are going to be close enough to a stored gun to be able to get to it in an true emergency. Even the elementary schools switch classes and teachers are teaching in different parts of the building than their home rooms.
3. I'd also agree with you on the need for additional training. If nothing else, all those in a school who would be carrying should be talking to one another. If I were a grandparent volunteer, I wouldn't want to just walk into the school without a better idea of what normal procedures are. I'd be happy to pay for my own additional training for the chance to help make sure that my granddaughter's day at school remained safe.
At the end of the day, however, passengers on airliners, without training or advanced coordination, have gotten together and taken out terrorists. I have a lot of confidence in people who suddenly recognize that their own lives are on the line if they don't do something, doing the right thing - if they have the means to do it.
You make some very valid points.
1. I agree with you that some school staff should not carry. But among those who you feel fall into that category, how many of them, on their own, would even think about getting a CHL? I'm a former teacher and remember thinking that some of my fellow staff members were a half of a bubble out of plumb. But almost all of those would have fainted at the sight of a gun and would have had a coronary before every putting such an "evil instrument" on their body. That's why I think school staff carry should be voluntary.
2. I fully agree that it should be "on body" only. The little darlings are very creative at finding things and the school day is too dynamic to assume that you are going to be close enough to a stored gun to be able to get to it in an true emergency. Even the elementary schools switch classes and teachers are teaching in different parts of the building than their home rooms.
3. I'd also agree with you on the need for additional training. If nothing else, all those in a school who would be carrying should be talking to one another. If I were a grandparent volunteer, I wouldn't want to just walk into the school without a better idea of what normal procedures are. I'd be happy to pay for my own additional training for the chance to help make sure that my granddaughter's day at school remained safe.
At the end of the day, however, passengers on airliners, without training or advanced coordination, have gotten together and taken out terrorists. I have a lot of confidence in people who suddenly recognize that their own lives are on the line if they don't do something, doing the right thing - if they have the means to do it.
- Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:09 pm
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
- Replies: 63
- Views: 9120
Re: Utah Teachers Concealed Carry
I'm impressed with the State of Utah for bucking the national trend and allowing teachers to carry in their classrooms.
1. I'm not in favor of "arming teachers" This implies that we force someone who doesn't want to carry a gun to do so. Allowing a teacher who has already made the decision to carry and who has invested personal time in accomplishing it legally to do so in the classroom is entirely different. I personally see no difference in a teacher carrying in Wal-Mart where there are kids and carrying in the classroom where there are kids. It the school environment makes something different, that something needs to be fixed.
I'm not in favor of turning teachers into school security. At least to start, I'm in favor of the NRA proposal to place trained professionals in schools. Security plans can be worked up from there. A teacher with a CHL is a last line of defense, not a security plan.
2. Student assaults on teachers are at an all time high. Those assaults should be punished under the law just like any other assault. Then student assaults wouldn't be so high. In the mean time, concealed is concealed and kids shouldn't know that the teacher is carrying in the class room any more than they would know if that teacher were carrying in Wal-Mart
Students bring guns to school. Not a good thing. I'm far more concerned about a self-armed student than I am a student figuring out that a teacher has a CHL and is armed and trying to take the gun away.
3. Teachers might overreact to a disturbance. But I suspect that the saying "an armed society is a polite society" would apply to teachers. I'm more cautious about getting into a confrontation now than when I didn't carry 24/7. I suspect that a teacher doesn't want to go to jail for over-reacting to something anymore than I do. 15 years and 600,000 CHLS in Texas suggest that the behavior of those choose to get a CHL is magnitudes better than the rest of society. I'll roll with that any time. I accept that this is not a perfect world and refuse to define our society by the random miscreants in it.
1. I'm not in favor of "arming teachers" This implies that we force someone who doesn't want to carry a gun to do so. Allowing a teacher who has already made the decision to carry and who has invested personal time in accomplishing it legally to do so in the classroom is entirely different. I personally see no difference in a teacher carrying in Wal-Mart where there are kids and carrying in the classroom where there are kids. It the school environment makes something different, that something needs to be fixed.
I'm not in favor of turning teachers into school security. At least to start, I'm in favor of the NRA proposal to place trained professionals in schools. Security plans can be worked up from there. A teacher with a CHL is a last line of defense, not a security plan.
2. Student assaults on teachers are at an all time high. Those assaults should be punished under the law just like any other assault. Then student assaults wouldn't be so high. In the mean time, concealed is concealed and kids shouldn't know that the teacher is carrying in the class room any more than they would know if that teacher were carrying in Wal-Mart
Students bring guns to school. Not a good thing. I'm far more concerned about a self-armed student than I am a student figuring out that a teacher has a CHL and is armed and trying to take the gun away.
3. Teachers might overreact to a disturbance. But I suspect that the saying "an armed society is a polite society" would apply to teachers. I'm more cautious about getting into a confrontation now than when I didn't carry 24/7. I suspect that a teacher doesn't want to go to jail for over-reacting to something anymore than I do. 15 years and 600,000 CHLS in Texas suggest that the behavior of those choose to get a CHL is magnitudes better than the rest of society. I'll roll with that any time. I accept that this is not a perfect world and refuse to define our society by the random miscreants in it.