TexasCHLforum.com

mamabearCali wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

bzo311 wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:I'm not ready to hang Zimmerman.... Heck....maybe he did us all a favor...I don't have any way of knowing.

The one and only firm position I have on this situation is that the average citizen is not well advised to play cop. Too much can go wrong and we may be causing a crime by trying to see if someone is about to commit a crime. If Zimmerman had been following me around... I would have assumed he was about to mug me... Or worse. This is a great example of why we as citizens should not try to play police officer.

It appears that Zimmerman has made a wrong choice here and it may cost him dearly. For what?.. He did not witness ANY crime being committed by the kid he was stalking.

I hear you, but you have to listen to what you are saying. To me it sounds like you're saying that we shouldn't take interest in other people's actions because that person could savagely attack us and force us to defend ourselves....

.. So if Zimmerman were following you, and then asked you "what are you doing here?" You would have hauled off and clocked him? I doubt it. I am sure that most of us would have gone with a verbal approach.

Taking interest in someone else's actions is not the same as intervening in someone else's actions. My response to zimmermans question would be less than polite. unfortunately, I might have clocked Zimmerman if I thought he was setting me up and getting to close. Isn't everyone on this forum always posting about staying in code yellow or something like that?

Zimmerman nor anyone else has the right to accost any of us, regardless of our physical look.

Right now we don't know that Zimmerman did that at all. All we know for sure (if we know anything for sure here) is that at some point he followed Martin and at some point Martin was on top of him beating his head into the ground.

If you clocked someone that was behind you that was trying to give you back you house keys you dropped two blocks ago I imagine they would be at minimum annoyed. I also rather doubt that you would continue beating their head into the ground once you knocked them down, but would instead be focused on running away.

03Lightningrocks wrote:I'm not ready to hang Zimmerman.... Heck....maybe he did us all a favor...I don't have any way of knowing.

The one and only firm position I have on this situation is that the average citizen is not well advised to play cop. Too much can go wrong and we may be causing a crime by trying to see if someone is about to commit a crime. If Zimmerman had been following me around... I would have assumed he was about to mug me... Or worse. This is a great example of why we as citizens should not try to play police officer.

It appears that Zimmerman has made a wrong choice here and it may cost him dearly. For what?.. He did not witness ANY crime being committed by the kid he was stalking.

03Lightningrocks wrote:If you folks want to be law enforcement officers, getting a CHL was not the first step. Good luck with that. Don't ever forget, you don't have law enforcement authority. There is a HUGE difference in self defense and running around looking for trouble...which is what Zimmerman did. ZIMMERMAN WITNESSED NO CRIME TAKING PLACE!

jmra wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

sugar land dave wrote:How did we get to drug use and drinking?

and did someone actually say or imply that everyone has done it?

I am getting a little on in years, but I have never smoked anything, and I cannot drink alcohol, so I am no expert on those actions, but everyone? I feel that might be a bit of a stretch.

On topic, I don't think SYG is in trouble beyond saving.

I am getting on in years and as a troubled teen tried about every drug known to man kind. Smoking pot never made me do anything other than laugh, eat everything in the house and fall asleep. It sure never made me or anyone else I ever saw stoned violent. Now drinking is a different story. I wish I had a nickel for every time I watched some redneck get all tough guy after drinking two beers. This thread is way too long to read every post, but some story about finding weed in this guys back pack does not make me think he is a bad guy in the slightest. It is also nothing more than the local cops trying to divert from the real issue. On what authority was Zimmerman donning his bat cape?

What this story does tell me is that armed watchmen and security guards are dangerous and don't have the proper training to be playing batman. Neither do the majority of us with a CHL. Don't chase me down and act like it is self defense when I clock you. The only one I won't go ninja on is a police officer. Security guards and neighborhood batmans are fair game. This is looking bad for the shooter. He never had any business chasing that kid down!

We are missing the point if we worry about the issue of whether Martin was a thug or not. The issue is that the shooter had no business acting as a cop. He didn't witness the kid committing any crime anyway! Are we really going to pretend this was a good shoot?

I think you are missing some very important information and making some large assumptions. Zimmerman was not on watch, he was going to the store. According to the physical evidence and eye witness accounts Zimmerman did not confront Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was attacked from behind. He was being beaten (nose was broken and Martin was repeatedly smashing his head against the sidewalk). The only witness to the beating believed that Zimmerman was in enough danger that he ran to his cell phone to call 911. I guess you believe that since Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin at a distance in order to give the police a better discription that he should have let Martin continue to smash his head until he was dead instead of defending himself.
The facts in this case are simple. If Zimmerman did confront Martin (it appears that he did not) he retreated back toward his vehicle before being attacked. Stand your ground does not apply because he retreated and none of Zimmerman actions prior to retreating (none of which were illegal) are relevant once he retreated. Unless more evidence comes to light, Zimmermans account, eye witnesses, and physical evidence all support self-defense.

Jusster wrote:

bzo311 wrote:

Jusster wrote:

bzo311 wrote:Well, I hope that all the people whom have jumped the gun here saying that Zimmerman was "playing police" or not acting responsibly, have seen the light in the reports now coming out of Fl. If what I am reading is correct, Zimmerman was accosted by the "child" when all he was doing was taking an interest in his actions. Simply following someone is not "playing police", not when you are trying to protect your community. It is not breaking the law to take an interest in others actions, it is however breaking the law to mount and pummel someone. Zimmerman had a broken nose and cuts / bruises.

It seems that racial and anti-gun focus groups, and even some pro-gun / chl ppl, have jumped the gun here and now those focus groups are going to ride the wave in as far as they can. If Treyvon turned and attacked Zimmerman simply because Zimmerman took an interest in his actions, then I think the community really needs to step up and aid Zimmerman against this political machine that wants to nail him to the wall.. and for what? Bad decision making? I'd say it is in our interest to protect the integrity of the "stand your ground" laws.

I disagree. I do still believe Zimmerman was “playing police” and it was his actions that lead to the encounter in the first place. For instance, what was Martin doing that made him suspicious? It is not illegal to walk home from the store in a hoodie is it? At this point, nobody knows how the fight started, but we do know that Zimmerman called in to report a suspicious person who was breaking no law and then proceeded to follow/chase Martin after he ran away.

As I have stated before. I see no problem with the law. But I will not step up and aid Zimmerman in any way, nor do I have any obligation to do so. It is not protecting the integrity of the law if it’s not applied justly. There are way too many questions surrounding this case for it not to have been sent to the GJ weeks ago. That would have avoided the media circus we have now.

Jusster

IMO, Playing police would mean that Z would have stopped and questioned Trayvon, maybe tried for apprehension. Did he do that?. Second, it isn't against the law to trail someone whom you think is suspicious, nor is it a justifiable means to attack someone; just because they were following you? By your admission, Z instigated the confrontation, so by following someone you, for whatever reason is your own, deem suspicious then you're asking for a a broken nose...? Sorry, but simply trailing someone is a non-aggressive act that does not justify an aggressive solution, therefore I don;t see why we're saying Z automatically is the aggressor, without any details as to whom actually 'threw the first punch".

And how do you know that he didn’t stop and question Martin? Based on Martin’s GF’s statements Martin asked Zimmerman why are you following me and Zimmerman responded with what are you doing here. Nobody knows what was said that started the fight.

I agree with gdanaher. You say it’s not a crime to follow someone but I would disagree depending on the context. When the person runs from you and
you chase them is that still considered non-aggressive? If I were doing nothing wrong and I noticed a “suspicious” person following me. I attempt to run to avoid a confrontation only to find moments later that you chased after me. At that point I would probably feel threatened. Do I then have the right to stand my ground?


Jusster

speedsix wrote:

bzo311 wrote:Well, I hope that all the people whom have jumped the gun here saying that Zimmerman was "playing police" or not acting responsibly, have seen the light in the reports now coming out of Fl. If what I am reading is correct, Zimmerman was accosted by the "child" when all he was doing was taking an interest in his actions. Simply following someone is not "playing police", not when you are trying to protect your community. It is not breaking the law to take an interest in others actions, it is however breaking the law to mount and pummel someone. Zimmerman had a broken nose and cuts / bruises.

It seems that racial and anti-gun focus groups, and even some pro-gun / chl ppl, have jumped the gun here and now those focus groups are going to ride the wave in as far as they can. If Treyvon turned and attacked Zimmerman simply because Zimmerman took an interest in his actions, then I think the community really needs to step up and aid Zimmerman against this political machine that wants to nail him to the wall.. and for what? Bad decision making? I'd say it is in our interest to protect the integrity of the "stand your ground" laws.

...the error here is that you ignore the fact that Z joined Neighborhood Watch...professed himself to be a leader...then by his own lips, followed, chased, and accosted a "suspicious" person...violating basic rules of N.W., went armed on duty...against N.W. rules, and refused to back off when the police dispatcher told him to...instead of cooperating with Law Enforcement, he wanted to BE the law enforcement...he started the whole thing in motion..."taking an interest in his actions" would have meant observe and report, and keep his big mouth shut...in this respect...we have not jumped the gun...in guessing what happened after Z accosted and questioned the deceased, we may have...whatever happened to Z or whatever happens to him in the future...he brought on himself...

...the ins and outs of Fla. law about who was the aggressor or did he try to disengage matter not a whit...he was playing police and assuming authority he never had...and that's why it happened...had he made the phone call and went on about his business...none of this would have happened...THAT fact is not in dispute...

Jusster wrote:

bzo311 wrote:Well, I hope that all the people whom have jumped the gun here saying that Zimmerman was "playing police" or not acting responsibly, have seen the light in the reports now coming out of Fl. If what I am reading is correct, Zimmerman was accosted by the "child" when all he was doing was taking an interest in his actions. Simply following someone is not "playing police", not when you are trying to protect your community. It is not breaking the law to take an interest in others actions, it is however breaking the law to mount and pummel someone. Zimmerman had a broken nose and cuts / bruises.

It seems that racial and anti-gun focus groups, and even some pro-gun / chl ppl, have jumped the gun here and now those focus groups are going to ride the wave in as far as they can. If Treyvon turned and attacked Zimmerman simply because Zimmerman took an interest in his actions, then I think the community really needs to step up and aid Zimmerman against this political machine that wants to nail him to the wall.. and for what? Bad decision making? I'd say it is in our interest to protect the integrity of the "stand your ground" laws.

I disagree. I do still believe Zimmerman was “playing police” and it was his actions that lead to the encounter in the first place. For instance, what was Martin doing that made him suspicious? It is not illegal to walk home from the store in a hoodie is it? At this point, nobody knows how the fight started, but we do know that Zimmerman called in to report a suspicious person who was breaking no law and then proceeded to follow/chase Martin after he ran away.

As I have stated before. I see no problem with the law. But I will not step up and aid Zimmerman in any way, nor do I have any obligation to do so. It is not protecting the integrity of the law if it’s not applied justly. There are way too many questions surrounding this case for it not to have been sent to the GJ weeks ago. That would have avoided the media circus we have now.

Jusster