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stevie_d_64 wrote:Which I have sometimes been concerned that any effort on our part to reasonably and maturely deal with a situation like this could be misconstrued as escalating in a court of law...But then again things like that would not surprise me...

You can tell a person who is doing something illegal to stop. As long as that is done in a reasonable way, I do not see how it could be considered provocation. This must be common law going back as far as common law existed.

Then, if the wrongdoer attacks you or retaliates, the law concerning use of force comes into play.

Texas DAs and courts are still reasonable about these things, thank God. Sometimes I'm surprised how tolerant they are. (Tolerant isn't quite the right word for refraining from prosecuting people for doing the right thing, but I can't come up with a better one.)

At the same time, you have to pick your fights. For example, I used to see prostitutes around my neighborhood. As long as they didn't bother me or mine, I pretended they didn't exist. Certain jobs are best left to the LEOs.

- Jim

stevie_d_64 wrote:What I meant was the slightest word, or look in the direction of someone who is basically doing something that is disturbing the peace, or causing an annoyance near you, or even something maliciously destructive or illegal, is a risk some people are not willing to interject their sensible reasoning into...

I agree. A more extreme example is a guy in Galveston who told drug dealers to go somewhere else, and they tried to burn down his business.

It's a risk, but if law-abiding people don't take it, the thugs will completely take over.

You just have to figure out the best way to do it.

- Jim

stevie_d_64 wrote:The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this question.

If a bunch of teenagers want to play loud music next to your house and throw beer cans around, and you ignore them, they will most likely be happy to continue.

If you do something to stop them, they will be unhappy about it, and possibly retaliate. Of course that is legally and morally wrong, but it can happen.

I just think you need to find the course of action that is least costly overall and most effective.

When we first moved into our current house, we had a lot of trouble with theft. Even our trash cans were stolen. We put up a security fence with locking gates and put burglar bars on the garage. Problem solved. I think the local thugs realized we were serious about security and turned to easier pickings.

- Jim

stevie_d_64 wrote:So knowing that, if someone believe they should place you under citizen arrest ..., you should comply to the point of trying to determine if it is warranted...

But pretty much by that time other lawful authority should be present, hopefully, and their evaluation and authority should be given full weight...

I think it depends very much on the circumstances. Walking away solves a lot of problems, but sometimes it can lead to escalation.

I just want to add that most people who try to perform citizen arrest are not justifed. To be blunt, they are cranks.

- Jim

txinvestigator wrote:This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

Ditto that.

The legal conseqences and cost of trying to arrest someone or using force to prevent criminal mischief in the nighttime (though legally justified) is probably more than a windshield.

You also have to think about escalated retribution. The families and friends of these young thugs often lack good judgment.

It occurs to me that a fence around the vacant lot might solve the whole problem. The property owner might be convinced that he is maintaining a public nuisance.

Lights and cameras might help, too. The cameras don't need to be real. You can buy fake security cameras.

- Jim

Thanks for the informative answer, TXI. This is something that I see discussed, and I'm not satisfied that I understand it.

In general, if you are going about your business and someone tries to stop you or make you come with them, you are not obliged to do so, right?

The gray area for me is retail store personnel. If they suspect you of theft, they are legally justified in detaining or chasing you.

In that case, what do you advise an honest citizen to do?

BTW, I'm thinking not only of mean-looking old guys like myself but young women and other vulnerable people.

- Jim