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He hasn't had written notice yet, he won't get oral notice until they reply to a request for authorization (if he requests authorization) .... then after he gets the oral notice "NO!!!" .... then it would be a criminal offense too if he carried anyway.
Until he gets notice, he could be terminated, but no crime occurred ... but after getting notice and carrying anyway, would be criminal offense as well as termination.

Tough decision, ask and risk rejection, or "don't ask don't tell" so that if you intend to carry anyway, it isn't criminal ...
Tougher yet when the city employee handbook doesn't say authorization from whom? Immediate Supervisor, or the Mayor?

I'd just carry a Taser, pepper spray, rubber bullets maybe, a beanbag gun, paintballs filled with an irritant? and other non-lethal weapons though. Then no policy was violated, and no crime committed either.
Maybe a 5-inch-blade orange peeling knife too, it's not a weapon, but an orange peeler/fingernail cleaner etc etc etc.

I still recall the faces of the Campus Police Officers many many years ago when I'd whip out my 5-1/4" inch blade to open boxes back when I worked at the College Campus bookstore ... I didn't carry any weapons at all there though, just my 5-1/4" inch bladed box opener and some spices in case the food needed more pepper ...

G26ster wrote:

RPB wrote:
He'd be more successful trying to prosecute under 30.06 IF he verbally told you to leave and you refused.
If you left, then he would have a problem later tying to prosecute for an offense that didn't occur.
§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

You seem to be changing the "or" in § 30.06(a)(2)(A) to an "and". You can be prosecuted whether or not you refuse to leave. Simply receiving notice that the handgun was forbidden is enough according to the statute.

No, the statement "Simply receiving notice that the handgun was forbidden is enough according to the statute" is incorrect because ... it is an OR

if
A) you are given notice that LICENSE HOLDERS may not enter carrying a gun on the property
(not notice that guns are forbidden on the property)
or
b) you are told to leave AND refuse to leave and remain

If you meet the condiions in A) OR the conditions in B) You have committed an offense.

BUT


The language "no unauthorized firearms allowed"
a) does not state "LICENSE HOLDERS" may not enter ...
and
b) No one told him/gave notice to leave

All the elements must be present for an offense to occur.
No criminal offense exists with a "no unauthorized firearms allowed" language any more than a gunbuster sign.
Neither say A) LICENSE HOLDERS may not enter with a gun.
Neither B) give notice that anyone needs to leave. (if it did, I wouldn't fail to depart and remain on the property)
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"Possession of unauthorized firearms or lethal weapons on the job."
I'd concentrate on the "or lethal weapons" and buy some of them rubber bullets or get a taser, not for legal reasons ... but if I wanted to keep from getting fired
However, this sign appears to communicate that Berettas and some Taurus models are "not authorized firearms" even with rubber bullets.
BUT it still doesn't say that "LICENSE HOLDERS" .....

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Employers may have rights to search employees property under certain circumstances, but I'd not consent to a bodily/strip search by an employer any more than by a WalMart greeter.

If I was terminated due to refusing to be BODILY searched, expect litigation against that company. (Couldn't tell you if cities enjoy soverign immunity, but I'd expect the 4th amendment to the Constitution covers governmental entities)

Without pulling up case law etc ...
When you go to work for any company you have a responsibility to serve the employer in the best interests of the workplace and as such, surrender certain rights to those for whom you work. Many employers post notices regarding their right to monitor phone calls, check computers and search lockers, desks and even bags and briefcases when employees leave the workplace. Employers, however, must respect certain employee rights when it comes to a physical search of any employee.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5426620_emplo ... rches.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...
The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution was designed to insure citizens do not have their personal property, space or body searched without probable cause. Probable cause must be established by a judge leading to a court order in the form of a warrant. The warrant will clearly state what is being sought and what will be searched. If you work for the government in a civil service position your Fourth Amendment rights are respected to the letter of the law

alpmc wrote:Sorry sjfcontrol if I misunderstood you!

Ok, I had breakfast with a ADA friend this morning and I was humbled by what I learned. Policy established by an employer is binding. If they have stated in their employee handbook a "no unauthorized firearm" policy, no matter how it's worded, then that employer can terminate your employment if they discover your CW......period. (more to come on this below)

As an employee you should approach your employer and ask permission to carry, during work hours, thus acquiring "authorization"! Get this in writing! This only protects you from your employer and termination. Bear in mind, if you approach your employer and you are not given permission.......they will be watching you very closely!

OK, here's the part that scares me in reference to the first paragraph and it's conditions............. after you have been discovered with a CW even and especially if you are a valid CCL holder, not only can you be terminated but you can be arrested for failure to conceal (PC 46.035 a) if your ex-employer reports you to law enforcement. Also, if your employer does not report you and you try to litigate for wrongful termination under the mentioned circumstances, my ADA friend said he would file charges against you and have you arrested for failure to conceal! (PC 46.035 a). The issue would now be a matter of whether or not your reveal was accidental or intentional. And that's a blurry line! (it gets more interesting if you employ your weapon in a dire situation under the above mentioned circumstances.)

I have nothing else to say on this matter except............ you, and only you can can decide if you want to risk your freedom and carry in any unauthorized situation as a civilian or an employee. Bottom line is do your homework if you do not know what your getting yourself into.........ignorance is not a defense!

What I gleaned from the underlying message in our conversation is, if your doing your job as a CCL holder then NOBODY should EVER know your carrying! So bdickens had the best advice...............

Strap it on, cover it up (really, really well), and shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to disagree with your ADA freind ... but after 25 years working in a law office before I retired, my layman's opion is in disagreement.

Well, it would have to be an INTENTIONAL "failure to conceal" to meet all the elements of a crime under (PC 46.035 a).

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(And, I can't see why you would intentionally REVEAL your weapon ... unless it was self-defense and JUSTIFIED/Necessity)

He'd be more successful trying to prosecute under 30.06 IF he verbally told you to leave and you refused.
If you left, then he would have a problem later tying to prosecute for an offense that didn't occur.
§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.


However, Texas is an "Employment at-will" state (not a right-to-work state etc) and generally, you could be fired for wearing the wrong socks, parting your hair wrong, or "for no reason at all" (Which is very common, so there is almost no way to sue for a 'wrongful termination unless you have proof of some sort of illegal discrimination based on Texas or Federal law) ... if there is "NO policy" ...then forgiveness is easier to get than permission, and if no law is broken, the worst that could occur is you get fired for being too happy, not sitting up straight, wearing the wrong cologne, or any other reason they want.... or no reason at all.

I'd recommend re-reading anything Keith wrote, and Keith's reply to chartreuse, among others....I ain't a lawyer.

lan40583 wrote:I'm an employee of a city in the Dallas area. Without going into too much detail about my actual job, I'll just say that I interact with the public on a daily basis but not in a building where carrying a concealed weapon would necessarily be prohibited.

In my employee handbook there is only one line referencing firearms, prohibing the "Possession of unauthorized firearms or lethal weapons on the job." My initial thought would be that the only "authorized weapons" in this case are those carried by police officers, but would the fact that I have a CHL mean that I am carrying an "authorized" or "unauthorized" firearm. I have no doubt that if I were caught carrying at work that I would be fired, but would I breaking the law?

I'd take the language to mean just what it says...

Texas Peace officers are authorized to carry by the State of Texas
The State of Texas authorized me to carry a concealed handgun whether Revolver OR Semi-Auto ...
Now if the State ONLY authorized you to carry a REVOLVER, and you get caught carrying a semi-auto, you are NOT AUTHORIZED to carry a semi-auto ... I'd take the language to mean just what it says...

I imagine I would be fired if I was caught carrying a firearm I was NOT authorized to carry ... I could also face criminal charges for carrying an unauthorized firearm, or type of firearm that I am NOT authorized to carry by the State of Texas... So I'd take that seriously.

I'd take the language to mean just what it says...
If there is other notice in the employee handbook, such as "or lethal weapons on the job" then I'd pay attention to that too.... and leave my maglight and ballpoint pen and letter opener and sizzors and steel toed boots and anything else that could be used as a lethal weapon, at home.

That said, I have no idea what the intentions were of the policy makers who wrote your policy manual, and I'm no lawyer and don't lose your job on my account if you need that job. Might stock up on non-lethal weapons to carry.