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urnoodle wrote:... . Not many take a woman seriously when she sounds like James Earl Jones .

Luke, I am your Mother!

Naw, just doesn't work...

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sjfcontrol...

I shoot at the BT quite often and have even taken my family there. After about an hour or so we start feeling like we all took up smoking and have to leave. The ventilation system appears to be holding all the smoke at the firing line. Next time I am there I plan to look for the exhaust to see if it is near the intake air. The air vents behind the range feel like they are putting out air at a pretty good velocity but the smoke just hangs on the line. On busy days it is almost unbearable.

Is it possibly more hazardous to our health there than I may have realized?

Well, I hesitate to comment on specific systems that I have no knowledge of other than what I observed there. I know others have complained about the same thing in this thread and elsewhere. They don't seem to have functional heating or A/C, if they've disabled those, who knows what kind of maintenance they're doing with their filters. (It sounded earlier in this thread that somebody was claiming they didn't have any )

Keep in mind that there are two locations that tend to collect the most lead dust: in front of the backstop (from when the bullet hits it), and just beyond the shooting line (from being fired). The backstop is too far from the shooter to be of concern, but the shooting line dust IS a concern. A properly designed airflow system will have a continuous stream of air flowing from behind the shooter, downrange. This carries any lead dust away from the shooter. How efficiently that is done depends on the system design, filter maintenance, and the number of shooters at any one time. Also, it is my understanding that even a HEPA filter will not filter out odors, so recycled air *MAY* be safe, even if it is unpleasant. Note that ventilation health problems are more of a problem for employees, than customers, as its an accumulation-over-time issue. And it is generally a good idea for management to keep their employees healthy. Otherwise OSHA and/or state health/disability people become involved.

The only real way to answer your question would be to take air samples during heavy use and have them analyzed. Probably something they wouldn't appreciate a customer doing -- just say'n.

C-dub wrote:Interesting! Do outdoor ranges have this problem. I would think not, but it might just be not nearly as critical because of the open environment as opposed to a closed one.

I missed this post. Yes, outdoor ranges also need to periodically mine the lead. Just like indoor ranges, if they don't, the lead builds up and starts to clump together as the rounds hit other rounds instead of dirt. Eventually they'll have problems with ricochets, spatter, etc. Not to mention erosion and slumping of the backstop itself. Of course, with both types of ranges, the required frequency depends on the amount of usage, and the quality of the management staff.

Also, this has to be done if the range is ever permanently shut down, prior to any other use.

C-dub wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:

GJwitha45 wrote:Is there a procedure for the removal of the lead and the other that goes "downrange" ?

I remember years ago trap and skeet ranges had equipment come in and scrape the ground, seperate the shot and re-establish the soil downrange.

Well, ranges "mine" the lead and sell it to recyclers. It's a revenue stream for them. Procedures vary depending on what technology the backstop uses to stop the round. With a dirt backstop you just dig a few inches down and sieve the dirt. "Total Containment" traps spin the bullets around a swirl chamber, and they fall out the bottom into a bucket, or onto a conveyor belt into a barrel. Shredded rubber backstops must be spread out and separated from the lead -- a messy process.

BassPro has a shredded rubber backstop. So, messy, but is it cheaper?

The backstop is much cheaper to buy, but much more expensive to mine than a total containment trap. TC traps continuously process the lead, so there is no mining expense persay. The lead is just deposited into buckets or barrels on a continuous basis. With a shredded rubber backstop the range need to be shut down ( or done overnight) the rubber spread across the floor, a leaf blowers used to separate the rubber from the lead. For obvious reasons, the people doing this need to wear protective gear and adequate air filters. The rubber is then returned to the backstop and the lead collected for recycling.

GJwitha45 wrote:Is there a procedure for the removal of the lead and the other that goes "downrange" ?

I remember years ago trap and skeet ranges had equipment come in and scrape the ground, seperate the shot and re-establish the soil downrange.

Well, ranges "mine" the lead and sell it to recyclers. It's a revenue stream for them. Procedures vary depending on what technology the backstop uses to stop the round. With a dirt backstop you just dig a few inches down and sieve the dirt. "Total Containment" traps spin the bullets around a swirl chamber, and they fall out the bottom into a bucket, or onto a conveyor belt into a barrel. Shredded rubber backstops must be spread out and separated from the lead -- a messy process.

GJwitha45 wrote:A question then. Once the lead is swept and/or squeege'd up, what is proper, safe, legal procedure for handling and disposing of it from there?

You squeegee up the brass, not the lead. You vacuum the range with a HEPA filtered, explosive-atmosphere-safe vacuum. (Since you're vacuuming up unburned powder, too.) Many range ventilation systems have acceptable vacuum outlets. Acceptable standalone vacuums are VERY expensive. 5-figures, I understand.

I don't know how the Bullet Trap does it, but that was the recommended method at the NRA conference. If you don't vacuum up the "green powder", you risk a range fire. Not a pretty sight!

03Lightningrocks wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote: The bristles stir up the lead dust. Ever sweep a dirty driveway? As you push, the action of the bristles "throws" the dirt up into a cloud in front of the broom. A squeegee, especially if not firmly pressed against the floor (which isn't needed to move brass), just pushes mainly the brass leaving the dust alone. IOW, the broom creates a scrubbing action against the floor not present with the squeegee.

Wow... glad to see the engineer in you isn't totally wasted on useless information.

He asked, I answered. Did you know the answer?

Yes I did, but was afraid of getting a post hog reputation so chose to wait for an answer I could critique. Thank you for the assistance. I hope you know I am just kidding with you a bit.

BTW... something you might find interesting. My spell checker tries to change your nick name from sjfcontrol to scoundrel. What's that all about???

Must be a Winslows machine. (Yes, I knew)

03Lightningrocks wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote: The bristles stir up the lead dust. Ever sweep a dirty driveway? As you push, the action of the bristles "throws" the dirt up into a cloud in front of the broom. A squeegee, especially if not firmly pressed against the floor (which isn't needed to move brass), just pushes mainly the brass leaving the dust alone. IOW, the broom creates a scrubbing action against the floor not present with the squeegee.

Wow... glad to see the engineer in you isn't totally wasted on useless information.

He asked, I answered. Did you know the answer?

Dave2 wrote:

C-dub wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:By the way, they DON"T use brooms to "sweep" the brass. They are properly using squeegees to "push" the brass. This is the proper way to move brass with minimal disturbance of any lead dust. A broom on a shooting range is an OSHA violation.

At one time, several years ago I thought I saw them using brooms, but it's been squeegees for some time now.

I wondered what happened to the brooms over at BassPro's range. They have had brooms and squeegees, but within maybe the last six months the brooms disappeared.

I used to shoot at Targetmaster all the time, and they always had brooms. I haven't been there in a couple months, so I don't know if they're still there.

How is a broom different from a squeegee?

The bristles stir up the lead dust. Ever sweep a dirty driveway? As you push, the action of the bristles "throws" the dirt up into a cloud in front of the broom. A squeegee, especially if not firmly pressed against the floor (which isn't needed to move brass), just pushes mainly the brass leaving the dust alone. IOW, the broom creates a scrubbing action against the floor not present with the squeegee.

According to lectures at the NRA Range Development Conference, using a broom on a shooting range is an OSHA violation -- dangerous to the employee's health.

By the way, they DON"T use brooms to "sweep" the brass. They are properly using squeegees to "push" the brass. This is the proper way to move brass with minimal disturbance of any lead dust. A broom on a shooting range is an OSHA violation.

At one time, several years ago I thought I saw them using brooms, but it's been squeegees for some time now.

MasterOfNone wrote:

Napier wrote:Re the comments about smoke at The 'Rap, I can see it coming a mile away - a new range rule (this will be Number 87, I think, following Number 86 banning stripping to your skivvies to stay cool): "No dirty powder on the range. This includes Yugo, Russo, Argentino and WWB cartridges."

Or they could require 30 seconds between shots.

Or... they could give each shooter a Japanese fan. Then require that each shooter "fan" their smoke downrange after each shot!

speakEasy wrote:Bullet trap is very overpriced on everything.

The indoor firing line is heated/cooled though; gonna have to disagree w/ a few people on that one. I do credit them, for taking care of that. I won't bash just for the sake of bashing something.

When was the last time you were there in the summer? It DEFINITELY isn't cooled. Even spoke to them about it. They didn't care. (I said "It's pretty hot back there...", their response was, "And it's gonna get hotter!") This was this last summer.

They may have some space heaters, but the last time I was there when it was cold outside, they weren't using them (last winter). Had to quit when I started to shiver.

Toytec -- Just to be clear, are you suggesting that he enforce a range-rule against a fellow customer? A rule with no obvious safety implications, and one with which he doesn't even agree?

If I were in his position, I can understand his being miffed at being singled-out -- however I would NOT try to enforce a rule against another customer where safety was not at stake. It's not my job, and why should MY lack of joy be used to prevent someones else's?

toytec07 wrote: Yes, they are under new management. The new owner is a great guy, I have met him a few times and he is very courteous. He is in the process of making upgrades to that range along with breaking ground on a new range in the DFW area that is supposed to be among the largest indoor ranges in the country. cut the guy some slack, he isn't like the old owners. More of a business man than the people pleaser who will come out and shake everyone's hand in the store.

Really?? I asked if the new owner was there, and was told he only showed up occasionally. I asked his name was told he doesn't let them (the clerks) give out his name. Asked about a phone number -- nope. Left my card with request he call me -- never did. He's a ghost.

AlaskanInTexas wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:Went to the Bullet Trap in Plano this morning. The moment I went thru the range doors, I knew it wasn't going to be a pleasant shoot. It must have been at least 95 degrees in there.

Went there last Saturday - warm, but I wouldn't have given it a second thought had I not read the post.

Only thing I can figure is that you haven't thawed out from Alaska, yet! (but you're a lot closer to thawed, now!)