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marksiwel

Purplehood wrote:The absence of religion makes it a religion?

Like I said (sarcastically), you dont believe in Santa and I dont believe in Santa, therefore we MUST be a Religion because we have a lack of Faith in Santa.

Atheism is NOT a Religion, its not a Faith, its just people who don't have religion play into their life.Now if you were saying be Agnostic was a religion, I could ALMOST agree with you, but many agnostics are religious.
Just like some people have NO sex drive and live an asexual life, it doesn't make them gay or straight , but its very different from celibacy which is choosing to re frame from sex.
The Aclu (which has been labeled Anti-Christian by the ignorant) has sued for Christians plenty of times, off the top of my head
They sued to keep a bible verse in a High school yearbook that someone has submitted as their quote
They defended the right of Prisoners to receive religious materiel
Defended people in Delaware who were using a elementary school for bible school meetings on Sundays
My point, its not just Busy Body Atheists or Anti-Christians suing to "Stir up trouble" or any of that nonsense, its about defending their right not to have Religion in government.
Its like when WE defend our second Amendment right to own AR15s, its NOT because we are a bunch of crazy's wanting to overthrow the government or shoot up schools.

marksiwel

untill you can admit that Atheism is not a Religion, I don't think we can have a serious conversation about this.

marksiwel

bdickens wrote:
marksiwel wrote:
bdickens wrote:"Separation of church and state" is a myth perpetrated by anti-Christians and has no basis in the Constitution or any other of our founding documents.
No its a very real thing (even if you dont want it to be)
Look up the "establishment clause" its in the 1st Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (among other things)
Then compare that to cases like "McCollum v. Board of Education" a Supreme Court ruling that said (paraphrasing) that teaching a Religion in a public school is against the Establishment clause. The group they ruled against was trying to get some of the Classes they were trying to get taught were JEWISH CLASSES. Do you want your Tax dollars going towards the teaching of Jewish and/or Islamic religions? Do you think THEY want their Tax Dollars going towards Christian classes? No of course not. The government shouldn't have a say on Religion unless its impeding on people's rights (like the Marrying 16 year olds or denying medical care to babies)

Supreme Court says we have a Right to Guns, Free Speech ect. the Supreme court also says you cant MAKE people in prey in School or swear that you believe in god to gain a Government position.

I could go on and on about this subject by I suggest you do your own reading on it. You will find that I am correct

This should help (That or reading the many books on the subject)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... sions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishm ... _Amendment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

America was founded by Christians and with a heavy influence on the bible. But there is a reason Government officials do not report or are not required to hold religious positions. our Founding Fathers (Think the Pilgrims) saw what can and will happen when you have a government that is run by Theology, it prohibits FREEDOMS. America was never set up to be run a Christian Nation run by Christians or a particular branch of Christianity, its was a Nation of "The People" who at the time just happened to be for the majority Christians.

You are absolutel;y 100% WRONG. The establishment clause prohibits the government from setting up an established religion. It also means that the government can not require religious observances, nor can it promote them. It does not say that the government can ban religious observances, no matter what some twisted "athiests" think.

Some people have a really hard time understanding plain English. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." seems pretty plain to me. Congress (and by extension, the States -via incorporation) can not start a "Church of the United States" nor compel membership. But on the other side of the coin, they can not prohibit citizens from exercising their religions.

The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from Thomas Jefferson who, incedentally, was not involved in the drafting of the Constitution.

Curiously, those same "athiests" who complain about the mythical "separation of church and state" whenever Christians want to pray in public spaces or display historical artifacts such as someone's Bible in them are strangely mute when it comes to schools having a "pretend you're a Muslim" day.

I dont see how we both point to the same piece of paper and say the same thing, and I'm the one thats wrong

The Supreme Court, has gone on to say that there should be a Separation of Church and state is in the Spirit of the Establishment clause (paraphrasing)
Mythical it aint friend, sorry its very Real and very important. You can pray outside in public, you just cant do it on Government land (even then most places wont stop you) or with government backing, I dont see why this upsets you so.
never heard of a School having a "Pretend your a Muslim day"

As far as Thomas Jefferson
*Wrote the Declaration of Independence
*Jefferson was in France during drafting, but did write many letters and had a great influence on the Constitution and those writing it,
Not to mention other things he had an influence on- the founding of the Federal Government, Secretary of State, a vice President, and the 3rd President of the US, I'd say his words have a great effect on the constitution on the founding of America in general, and to disregard his influence is myopic at best

marksiwel

The Annoyed Man wrote:
marksiwel wrote:Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.
But it is still a belief system. You believe there is no God, which is certainly your right under the 1st Amendment, because you can't empirically prove it to be true. Thus, atheism still has the central characteristic which atheists object to in religion — faith.

Do you believe in Santa? Nope, me either, does that mean we have a Belief structure going on together? Does that mean your Anti-Santa? Do you "Hate" what Santa stands for? No of course not thats silly.

Not believing in something,and someone else not believing in something does not make them an Organized religion. I never said "I" believe there is no god, my thoughts on the subject are private and none of your business, and your thoughts on your beliefs are private and none of my business, as it should be. If you want to shout it from the roof tops feel free, just dont use Government Land, property, and monies to do so.

I assume you are talking about the Mt. Soledad National War (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Supreme court is fighting about. Its on Government property, but like I posted earlier, to ME if its a historical site it should get a pass because it reflects the history of the people at the time (Right or wrong).
But its also a giant Cross for the dead of Jewish, Native American, other religions and Non Religious people. A Cross is the symbol of a certain religious organizations that I don't need to name because we all know who they are.
(I would have quoted you but I was having problem fitting it all in the box without the message get "weird" and not posting (Is this a server error?))

marksiwel

The Annoyed Man wrote:
marksiwel wrote:America was founded by Christians and with a heavy influence on the bible. But there is a reason Government officials do not report or are not required to hold religious positions. our Founding Fathers (Think the Pilgrims) saw what can and will happen when you have a government that is run by Theology, it prohibits FREEDOMS. America was never set up to be run a Christian Nation run by Christians or a particular branch of Christianity, its was a Nation of "The People" who at the time just happened to be for the majority Christians.
Exactly! Which is why the religious are angered with the government backs lawsuits brought by atheists. Atheism is a religion, as much as any other religion. Atheists believe in something which they can no more empirically prove than any religious person can empirically prove their faith. Intellectually honest atheists — and there are many out there like this — will admit this about their belief system. Government backing of atheism violates the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment, but it happens all the time (like forbidding a high school valedictorian speaker to talk about the role that faith played in his or her life). When an atheist brings a suit about that, it 1) violates the freedom of speech clause of the valedictorian's 1st Amendment rights, and it violates the establishment clause of the valedictorian's 1st Amendment clause.

This stuff cuts both ways.

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.
Really when the governments backs Non-Religious (Atheists) law suits its because you don't see Catholics suing about using public funds for setting up The Nativity on the Statehouse lawn, the people to bring these lawsuits to court generally arent religious. DO YOU see a Problem with using My tax dollars to pay for a Christmas Tree? or a Kwanzaa Quilt (or whatever it is they use)
As for the schools stopping one of their Valedictorians from talking about religion, well schools are stupid, what can I tell you, but the school also CANT (legally) make him talk about religion if he didnt want to. he also couldn't talk about how smoking pot and looking at porn helped him get straight A's and keep the pressure off. Public school is sadly not a place where your "Rights" exist, you cant arm yourself, you cant say what you want, you can be detained and searched at will.

marksiwel

The Annoyed Man wrote:
marksiwel wrote:
bdickens wrote:"Separation of church and state" is a myth perpetrated by anti-Christians and has no basis in the Constitution or any other of our founding documents.
No its a very real thing (even if you dont want it to be)
Look up the "establishment clause" its in the 1st Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (among other things)

or prevent the free exercise thereof.
The establishment clause does not exist in a vacuum. It's like the "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd Amendment. The "right to keep and bear arms [which] shall not be infringed doesn't exist to preserve a right to go duck hunting. It exists to ensure that The People will always be armed. For people of faith, we see the right to the free exercise of our religion prevented by the state all the time. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't going on.

You are Free to practice your faith, just don't do it on Government Time or with Government Money or expect the government to "back you up". If you look at it, Christians in America hold more power than any other group in America, hands down at every level of State and Federal Goverment. To say that the Government is stopping you from practicing your religion is alittle ...much. Are they building camps? are they taxing churches? are they burning bibles? No. Really what you've been seeing is "the People" realizing that Religion has overstepped its bounds into the Public School system, charity, and politics in general and trying to cull that trend.
So sorry, you cant put the ten commandments up in NEW Court Houses, but I feel that if the 10 Commandments existed in that church over 60 years than that is part of a Historical Landmark, or whatever you want to call it.
Basically you cant let one religion have too much influence in government otherwise its too easy for other relgions to be destroyed or labeled as "wrong" or "un-American"
So its safer to have litte/no religion in politics than alot of it
I can name a "Democracy" with a very large religious presence in its Schools, Work, and Politics, its alittle place called Iran.

marksiwel

Or to quote Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

Or just this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... ted_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

marksiwel

bdickens wrote:"Separation of church and state" is a myth perpetrated by anti-Christians and has no basis in the Constitution or any other of our founding documents.

No its a very real thing (even if you dont want it to be)
Look up the "establishment clause" its in the 1st Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (among other things)
Then compare that to cases like "McCollum v. Board of Education" a Supreme Court ruling that said (paraphrasing) that teaching a Religion in a public school is against the Establishment clause. The group they ruled against was trying to get some of the Classes they were trying to get taught were JEWISH CLASSES. Do you want your Tax dollars going towards the teaching of Jewish and/or Islamic religions? Do you think THEY want their Tax Dollars going towards Christian classes? No of course not. The government shouldn't have a say on Religion unless its impeding on people's rights (like the Marrying 16 year olds or denying medical care to babies)

Supreme Court says we have a Right to Guns, Free Speech ect. the Supreme court also says you cant MAKE people in prey in School or swear that you believe in god to gain a Government position.

I could go on and on about this subject by I suggest you do your own reading on it. You will find that I am correct

This should help (That or reading the many books on the subject)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... sions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishm ... _Amendment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

America was founded by Christians and with a heavy influence on the bible. But there is a reason Government officials do not report or are not required to hold religious positions. our Founding Fathers (Think the Pilgrims) saw what can and will happen when you have a government that is run by Theology, it prohibits FREEDOMS. America was never set up to be run a Christian Nation run by Christians or a particular branch of Christianity, its was a Nation of "The People" who at the time just happened to be for the majority Christians.

marksiwel

I'm a 25 year old, who lives in the Austin Area. I've never been in the military, never been a cop. Have only been into firearms for alittle over a year. I lean right when it comes to Money, but I'm a raging lefty when it comes to peoples "Rights". I'm all for gay marriage polygamy, nudity in public, breast feeding, I want to get rid of the Mpaa for Censorship, I get mad that Public and Private TV is censored to such an extreme. I dont understand why I cant own a Machine gun without the government Games.
I'm strangly for the Iraq and Afghanistan war and wish we would send every troop we have sitting on their duffs in Germany and Japan to Afghanistan and Iraq and get the job done right.
I'm Pro Choice, but wish there wasnt a need for abortions.
I wish Frank and Open talks about sex would take place at home, but am fine with the schools forcing kids to open their damn fool heads and learn the facts.
I cant stand the Religious right in this country and how they turn separation of church and state into a "War on Christmas"
I dont think global warming is "real" but am all for doing everything we can to stop the pollution on the planet
My wife is becoming a Lawyer, I work as a dog groomer

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