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ghostrider wrote:>I agree that gun control doesn't work in an uncontrolled area and in a free society. But I don't think an active
> duty military installation is uncontrolled area and I don't think the military is a free society.

Agreed. But you could say the same thing about a prison and apparently we can't keep illegal weapons, drugs or even cell phones out of prisons, so I don't think it will work anywhere. This whole tragic incident has shown that a military installation isn't that controlled either.

There's no such thing as a "controlled area" of that size, with tens of thousands of people entering and exiting every day.

As you note, guns even get smuggled into jails and prisons.

ELB wrote:

Nobody made Hasan do what he did. He acted alone. If we accept that he was somehow controlled, then we have to accept that Right-to-Life forced Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics. I rejected that: both criminals acted as individuals.

This is complete nonsense. Right-to-Life did not advocate bombing every abortion clinic out of existence.

You have focused on my use of "Right-to-Life", and missed the point: there are RTL groups, rightly described as fringe elements, that call for killing abortionists and destroying their clinics.

Just to be clear, when I said "Right-to-Life", I wasn't referring to National Right to Life Committee, I was referring to various groups that promote violence.

Dudley wrote:

chabouk wrote:Nobody made Hasan do what he did. He acted alone. If we accept that he was somehow controlled, then we have to accept that Right-to-Life forced Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics. I rejected that: both criminals acted as individuals.

Nobody made the 9/11 not terrorists do what they did either.

I don't think you intended to do so, but you're agreeing with me.

casingpoint wrote:It's virtually a given there is a connection between Hasan and radical Islam. He has performed exactly as individual sleeper cells are charged to do by Al Qaeda, independent of a central command structure and support.

No, an individual sleeper cell would be trying his best to appear enthusiastic about his service until the time came to strike. He would eschew (outwardly) any religious or cultural ties (like regularly attending prayers at mosque, wearing cultural garb, etc.)

Hasan did the opposite of what a sleeper would do: he hired a lawyer to try to get out of the Army, was open in his criticism of the war, practiced his religion ardently, and wore Middle Eastern attire.

Nobody made Hasan do what he did. He acted alone. If we accept that he was somehow controlled, then we have to accept that Right-to-Life forced Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics. I rejected that: both criminals acted as individuals.

I don't think this shooting, as horrific and terrifying as it was, qualifies as "terrorism".

Terrorism is a strategy, an overall campaign, rather than a single act. By definition, it seeks to instill widespread fear by attacking innocent and neutral parties multiple times, disrupting life by creating "terror" that it can happen again at any time, anywhere.

This was mass murder, not terrorism.

The Five-seveN and 5.7x28 will be further demonized, but it was irrelevant: no one was wearing armor. Okay, perhaps the police who responded were wearing armor, but the one who was shot was hit in the thigh.

There have been revolvers and even one semi-auto (AMT Auto-Mag III) chambered in .30 carbine, which will definitely defeat Level III body armor. So will 7.62x25, available by the case all over the country, and usable in any of the hundreds of thousands of Tokarevs and Cz-52s out there. The 7.62x25 is hotter than, but physically the same as, .30 Mauser, which in turn was based on the 7.65x25 Borchardt.

That's right: ammo designed in 1893 will defeat standard police body armor in 2009.

Oldgringo wrote:Have the handguns used by the shooter been identified?

This article says he had two handguns, but only fired one. It was a Five-seveN. The calls for banning it should begin in 3... 2... 1...

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/s ... spect.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The initial investigation shows that Hasan allegedly used only one gun during the attack — a 5.7-caliber semiautomatic pistol.

Army officials said Hasan also was carrying another handgun. But the law enforcement official said there's nothing so far to indicate the second weapon was fired.

I can only imagine how the Brady bunch are trying to adjust their rhetoric: "Handguns are so dangerous that only the police and military... uhmmm, ooops."

The FN would have a standard 20 round magazine, or 30 round extended magazine. He could have fired those shots with just one or two magazine changes. I haven't heard a round count yet. Not that it matters. Someone with a 1911 and a pocket full of 7-round magazines could shoot just as much, just as fast.

The reports say the officer who shot him responded in three minutes. If it was literally 180 seconds, Hasan could have fired 90 rounds (it sounds like it was probably less), and had a full two seconds between shots. Rate of fire and magazine capacity just wouldn't be an issue.

I wonder if he picked the date for its historical significance.

"Remember, remember the 5th of November."

I took a short nap this afternoon, and woke up to my wife saying, "Don't worry, they're okay! There's been a shooting at Hood, but the kids are fine."

She knew the first thing I would do after waking up was turn on the news, so she wanted to let me know our son and daughter-in-law were fine. He had actually called her before she even saw the news (smart move; he knows his momma!)