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gigag04 wrote: Like this:
---> ---> (here is where gun may be drawn ---> or

And then, or

Wow!!! It all makes such perfect sense now ... but then again, I am one of those "visual learners"

I agree that the presence of a gun (drawn/shown or merely "implied" with a hand motion toward the holster as handog suggests) is a strong deterrent to impending attack. On the other hand, it can also be the spark that starts a shootout when only some nasty words would've been exchanged otherwise.

Others have posted and I agree that much of this boils down to "reasonable belief" that you are in danger. And that reasonable belief is different for everyone. Two men walking toward me at night in and of itself is not enough "reasonable belief" for me. Their failure to respond to direct question "what do you want" gets into a grey area. Their failure to heed to a loud oral warning of "STOP! Don't come any closer" likely qualifies as "reasonable belief" that either their intentions are not good or they are deaf or drunk.

Do like handog's hand-on-gun idea, but for most of us who carry on the belt this is going to requires at least some "unconcealing" of our firearm to do so. This is one of the nice things about pocket carry - hand on grip and ready to draw and no one knows a thing.

Cosmo 9 wrote:I was going to do what I usually do and just stay quiet but....

1. This is a public sidewalk about 7' wide anyone going in the opposite direction is coming right at you.
2. If you hold your hand out towards me in the classic stop sign and tell me to stop it's going to get you laughed at.
3. They have no obligation to answer your questions. They had the same right to be there as you did.
4. They didn't verbally threaten you or make any demands of you.

I'm not saying that they had no malicious intent, I'm just saying from what I read I would have needed a little more info.

gigag04 wrote:Even to someone with a hearing impairment or a mental handicap (many of the homeless fall in this category) would realize something is going on when they are lit up with a light.

Some very good points to consider here. Just because these people seemed menacing to you, doesn't necessarily mean they ARE menacing or that they believe/realize they are menacing. Which again leads me to believe pulling the gun was premature. My gut tells me they WERE up to no good, and your instinct obviously told you the same thing. This just falls smack into that little grey area and there is a lot of room for "reasonable doubt". A lot of good alternative suggestions have been offered. Again, if I was on the jury I would not have convicted you of any crime for your actions as described here. But I still think there are better alternatives and this is a great learning experience. The OP did well, next time he'll be able to do even better.

As for #2 above in Cosmo's post, I couldn't care less is someone laughs at me. If they laugh, I will likely be able to better gauge their intentions while only I will know how close they came to the muzzle of my handgun pointed in their general direction. They can go to the bar and laugh all they want at the "freak" who put his hand up and told them to "STOP!" like a crossing guard or something. I'll go home safe and sound in the knowledge that I de-escalated a situation and no one got hurt.

There is not room on your person to carry both your gun and your ego. Take the gun, but leave the ego at home. If the worst thing that happens to you is a bruised ego, then you have WON the encounter. Go home and be happy at the non-violent outcome.

jtran987, again thank you for sharing this story with us. I too am very happy this turned out well for you and your girlfriend in terms of your safety/security and any legal ramifications. Please understand any questioning of your choices/tactics truly is just Monday morning quarterbacking and is an attempt to learn with everyone else following this thread. Please know that your "goodness" (for lack of a better term) is not being questioned, only the choices you made are being dissected so that everyone may benefit from your experience.



With that said, I still think you were a bit quick to pull the gun based on the information you've provided. There are two additional steps I feel you could have taken before the "threat" was real enough to warrant pulling your firearm (both have been mentioned previously either here or in other threads):

1. Hold out your off hand, palm toward the men in the classic "stop" motion and say very loudly and assertively "STOP! Do not come any closer." If the men continue walking toward you at this point, then I believe you've exhausted all possible de-escalation possibilities and pulling your weapon is justified, IMHO. In your OP you stated that you asked "very loudly what they needed" and they ignored you and kept approaching. This is close, but still not the same to me as an assertive vocal "STOP!" and hand motion.

AND/OR

2. Go a different direction away from your car (back toward the restaurant, down another street (as long as it's at least as well lit as current street) and see if the men continue to follow. Again, not seeing this first-hand it's difficult to know if there was time to take an evasive manuveur such as this. But it should be attempted if possible. If these men just happened to decide to head in your opposite direction with no ill intent, then they will walk past and situation is over. If they intend harm, then they will likely follow you.

It cannot be overstated that the above is strictly "best practices" and tactics that can be used if the situation is right. I was not there so don't know if these tactics would have been best in your particular situation. Just food for thought. In my mind, based on what you've told us, even if the cops gave you a hard time and/or arrested you, if I was on a jury I would not have convicted you of aggravated assault in this case. My only reason for repeating some of these suggestions is that the goal is to avoid the ride AND the rap.

Again, very happy this turned out well for you and VERY pleased you were carrying and able to defend yourself.

um .... am I the only other member here who thinks gigag might be right and OP committed Aggravated Assault? I mean, other than walking in your general direction, at night, and putting you into high alert, did these two people actually DO anything that warranted pointing a gun at them? Not trying to nitpick, but this is VERY DANGEROUS territory for CHLees and I think we can all learn from this scenario and I thank the OP for sharing it. And believe me, there have been plenty of times in my life when merely the presence of a few creeps walking toward me made me wish I could just show them my gun and say "keep walkin' fellas". But until at least an implied threat of violent or illegal action is made toward you, I'm not sure you can just point a gun at someone because they give you the creeps.