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30-30 wrote:As I said, I do NOT agree with the tactics used here to force this upon the gun show owner. I am very much for private sales, and despise the ATF.

As for the Saxet show, it was quite obvious what was going on there. As far as Saxet not being responsible for the conduct of others in there, would you say the same thing if they were openly selling cocaine from the tables every show? You really think a bar owner that allowed folks to sell/use drugs openly in his bar would stay out of trouble by saying "hey, I just let them in here and sell them booze!"

Someone openly selling cocaine in a bar is not a good analogy. First of all, most bars are small enough you can see/hear most everything that goes on from the bar. The Saxet gun show took up a space the size of a half a Sam's Club warehouse. Even if it WAS the promoter's responsibility, which it is not, how is he supposed to police this? Isn't it the police department's job to police illegal activity?

Also, it's a stretch to say illegal gun sales went on "openly" at Saxet show. I attended nearly every Saxet show last year and I didn't see any of this. Sure some of the non-FFL "collectors" tout "no paperwork" because, let's face it, it is a selling point, and not necessarily for illegal sales. Some law-abiding folks are just more fearful of the gubment or believe background checks and paperwork infringe on their 2A RKBA. I never once heard a seller saying "no paperwork" in Spanish to Hispanic customers, but then I don't speak Spanish so how would I know?

As 06nop said, Austin is a "sanctuary city" and APD does not arrest illegals or even ask them for ID. There is a "Mexican flea market" right next door to the gun show. If APD doesn't ask for ID and let's illegals roam free, why are they harassing private gun sellers for not checking ID?

But the bigger point in all this is that it is NOT the gun show promoter's job to enforce Federal gun laws. If the promoter knew of illegal sales and didn't report them or looked the other way or actively encouraged them, then he would already be under arrest.

30-30 wrote:but there was a bunch of shady dealing (or the appearance thereof) that was simply begging for trouble. Personally, if I were running the show myself, I'd only allow FFLs to have tables to sell guns (none needed for the junk/beef jerky vendors of course) simply from the fact that there are folks that seem to always be "looking to sell a few guns from their collections" every show, which leads to the ATF poking around more to bust them for operating as a dealer without a license (I don't know about now, but back in the day they just gave you an ultimatum to get an FFL, or they'd make your life miserable). Note that this wouldn't stop folks walking around and selling/buying to each other, it would just cut down on the shadier folks at the shows.

The appearance of crime, or even crime itself, is NOT a good enough reason to infringe the rights of every law-abiding participant. Lots of people use handguns to commit crime. Having a handgun on your person gives many people the appearance you intend to commit a crime. Therefore all handguns should be banned, right? How is your logic here any different?

And why do non-FFL collectors seem so "shady" to you? Are they any more shady than someone who sells 3 or 4 guns here on TexasCHLForum.com or on TexasGunTrader.com ? Guns are a very personal product to purchase. A gun owner needs to be completely comfortable and confident in the gun(s) he/she owns, especially if used for self defense, hunting, or any other activity other than general plinking. But, unlike cars, you can't really test drive a gun. Sure, you can rent a gun at the range and then buy a similar model. But you can't test drive the actual gun you're going to purchase (unless you're purchasing a used gun FTF and seller agrees to it). So, many people buy a lot of guns before they find the gun(s) they like best and are most comfortable and confident to own/use. What are we supposed to do with all the guns we ended up not liking? Turn them in to Dallas PD or LAPD for food stamps or teddy bears?

By forcing all sellers to use an FFL middleman, APD/ATF not only are forcing all transactions to be recorded but they're also hindering free commerce by forcing law-abiding citizens to use a middleman to complete a transaction, thus ensuring the middleman gets his cut of the deal, and ensuring that no individual seller will be able to venture far from the pricing set by the FFLs. Best analogy I've heard relating to this is how would you like it if the government forced you to use a real estate agent to sell your home? I'm a Realtor and even I would be against that; and most FFLs are against an end to private party sales.

30-30 wrote:First, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the tactics being used here. I also have been to the Saxet shows, and was absolutely appalled at the number of illegal aliens in there buying guns. I saw guys at tables hollering "no papers" in Spanish to groups of them. Saxet turned a really blind eye to all this going on, and was asking for this kind of treatment. It sucks that the guy who took over for Saxet seems to be the one getting bit for things that happened before he was there.

We are all getting "bit" by this. Not just the promoter. And just because some unscrupulous non-licensed collectors/dealers were willfully seeking to illegally sell to illegal aliens via private transactions DOES NOT mean any law enforcement agency has the statutory authority to say that now ALL private transactions MUST BE conducted via an FFL middleman.

Furthermore, it is not the job of a gun show promoter (Saxet or any other) to monitor or enforce any gun sale laws within a gun show they are promoting. If law enforcement wants to enforce these real laws that are on the books like not selling to felons and illegals (which I personally think they SHOULD enforce) then by all means they have the authority to do so within any gun show. But don't blame the promoter unless you have PROOF that the promoter willfully encouraged or did not report illegal gun sales in his show. Since neither BATFE nor APD nor any other LEA has filed charges against the Saxet promoter, much less the TGS promoter, then I don't think they have any proof, only innuendo and supposition. The promoters are not (necessarily) FFLs themselves. They are just business people who see an opportunity to use their marketing and business expertise to bring customers and vendors together under one roof for a weekend. This is not any different than any flea market or trade show. It is the responsibility of the dealers (licensed and otherwise) and the customers to follow the law.

I fully realize there are a lot of people - even some gun owners - who feel that all firearms transactions should be conducted through a licensed dealer and background checks run for EVERY transaction. That's a valid point, one with which I happen to disagree unless certain other conditions are met (too far off topic for this thread). But until all the people who think all gun sales should require licenses and background checks put together enough votes and/or political power to make their desires into a LAW, they need to stop harassing people who are not breaking any law.

There are already laws on the books that allow the law enforcement agencies to stop illegal gun purchases through legal means and not coercion. Are these means more difficult than making a blanket statement that all private sales are now banned? Of course they are. But since when did the cops saying "but this is too hard" amount to a hill of beans compared to our civil rights and the rule of law? Do cops get to beat a confession out of you because to follow Miranda is "too hard"? Do they get to search your home without a warrant because getting a warrant is "too hard"? HECK NO! So why is this any different?

Today's Alex Jones Show had another interview with gun show promoter and sounds like HEB may pull the plug entirely and not allow any future gun shows at their location.

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Who's willing to participate in helping organize a group of Austin area TexasCHLForum members to attend the Texas Gun Show on Saturday February 20 to show support for the gun show promotor and protest the BATFE and APD actions? Would be a great chance to meet a lot of you local guys and maybe do a bit of good. Plus, I've got a Browning BPS shotgun I'd like to sell FTF in a private transaction