TexasCHLforum.com

IF I have had to use 1000 rounds in a firefight I would have already either called 911 or Ellington Field for an airstrike.

The point isn't that anyone expects to shoot 1000 rounds in an SD/HD situation, the point is that this is a way to show up minor issues that might not otherwise be noted at all.

A typical malfunction rate for a good quality gun with factory magazines and ammunition is perhaps 3 rounds in 1000. If you get to the range once or twice a month to shoot 50-100 rounds and have a couple of guns, you might note a malfunction once or twice in a YEAR. At that sort of "rate", unless you keep very stringent records you probably won't even take notice of the malfunction.

A lot of people assume that shooting 1000 rounds without cleaning will somehow cause the situation to be more stressing. In the general case that is not true--in fact, in both matches so far, the number of malfunctions per stage has DECREASED over the course of the match. In other words, as the guns get MORE rounds through them and get more fouling buildup, they get MORE reliable in general. I suspect at some point that would cease to be true, but up to 1000 rounds, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

The point of shooting a LOT of rounds in a relatively short time while stringent records are being kept is that you can show up issues that might otherwise go unnoticed. The bigger point is that the information is useful to other people who actually take the time to look at the results instead of just dismissing it out of hand.

Is there going to be a 2010 shoot????

At this time, the plan is to continue having these matches annually.

I don't understand the point of this. If you have a CHL you should have a working knowledge of your firearm and its reliability with the ammo that it will shoot. Relying on some sort of test is irrelevant.

Did you read the results in the link I posted?

The point is less about the SPECIFIC guns and ammunition used in the match and more about semi-automatic pistol function issues in general.

It's true that I've learned things about each of the two guns I've shot in these matches so far, but I've also learned some very general lessons about semi-automatic pistols from the overall results. Those lessons are more useful than the specific things I discovered about my own pistols.

Results are in!

The only gun to finish the match malfunction free was a G17 purchased used by the current owner.

Rather than cross-post a bunch of information, I'm just going to provide a link to the results. I will be updating the results as I continue to sift through the data collected at the match, so you'll want to check back from time to time.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... p?t=324738

The guns that finished 1 and 2 in the match were the two cheapest guns shot that day. They were both purchased used.

Data collection was a bit more focused this year and that yielded some useful results. Information relating to equipment selection, chamber empty carry and slide-release vs. slingshot for loading the first round.

She didn't say the clinic she went to was "free".

The point that DNS was making is that this match IS free. No range fees, no entry fees, no fees at all. AND, while the conventional wisdom says there's no such thing as a free lunch, last year's match proved that saying was incorrect, at least for the 14 shooters who attended the match. ;)

In other words, there are a number of reasons why comparing this match to a shooting clinic isn't quite kosher. Cost is one reason, what you expect to get out of it is another.

Don't know if I want to bring both though...

I recommend if you bring two guns you bring a second shooter. Last year things were pretty busy between shooting, loading mags, taking your turn with the scorekeeping duties, etc.

I hope everyone has a good (and safe) time doing it.

No injuries last year and everyone was enthusiastic (if a bit tired) at the post-match debrief.

For most of us...it proves little (if anything)...

PROVING things is very difficult. Collecting data and looking at the results is a bit easier--and the nice thing about having actual data is that others can look at it and draw their own conclusions.

By the way, concrete & practical suggestions on how to improve the match are welcome.

If I were trying to garner valuable information in this arena, there would need to be a control for the variables like ammo.

Finances do not allow the match organizer to provide identical ammunition to all the competitors at this time, but that variable is being controlled more tightly this year than last by not allowing reloads. In addition, there is work being done on trying to find a way to have all the competitors shoot the same brand of ammunition--we're not there yet. You have to start somewhere, and this is the somewhere where we are right now.

In short, the variables in the match are as tightly controlled as circumstances (and the tolerance of the participants) will allow. It sounds like it's just a day of blastage, but a lot of thought, planning and effort goes into the preparation. Is it perfect?--hardly. But it's about as carefully controlled as this type of test can be given the basic limitations of the governing circumstances of the match.

Are the results going to be easily interpreted and free from the effect of uncontrolled variables? Of course not, but that doesn't make them useless. There was much to be learned from last year's match--including the answer to this issue you bring up...

I have no need to put the kind of wear on my gun that a 1000 round rapid-fire session would induce...

This concern was raised prior to the match last year so I took some careful closeups before and after the match to determine how 1000 rounds of rapidly-fired 10mm would wear my pistol. The results can be seen in the link posted in the original post of this thread, but I'll warn you that they're extremely...anticlimactic.

As to my comment about the difference in how people respond to this thread, it was based primarily on my observations of the responses to both last year's announcement and this announcement.

On the firearms enthusiast forums (CZ Forum, Ruger Forum, etc.) the response is nearly uniformly positive. People post that they wish they could attend, that it's a great idea, that the results are interesting.

On the defensively oriented forums (such as this one) the responses tend to be much more negative. People post reasons why the match is a waste of time and money, why it won't/doesn't prove anything, why it's bad for the guns. Even had one person last year say it would hurt shooting skills to shoot that much in a single day. (If it did I couldn't tell it--the day after cranking out 1K rounds of 10mm in a polymer gun, I shot in another unrelated match and posted a personal best.)

I shot some hollowpoint ammo through my Glock 10mm at the match last year--one box of the PMC was 170gr JHPs. And yes, that much ammo (even in FMJ) does run into some cash.

While you may have hardware failures, ammo is just as critical a factor in firearm function and the fault of a failure can't always be determined definitively.

There were no hardware failures (in terms of parts breakage) but there were lots of malfunctions. Some due to shooter issues, some due to improper maintenance, some due to issues with reloads, some probably due to the gun.

And while it's true that the fault of a failure can't always be determined definitively that doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned. It just means you have to be careful interpreting the results.

I'm quite happy with that, and don't feel I need to prove its reliability further.

It's funny how different people react to this match. Some seem to take it as a personal affront while others see it as a chance to interact with other shooters, spend a day at the range free of charge, and perhaps learn a bit about themselves and their pistol.

For whatever it's worth, NO ONE brought a pistol to the match thinking that it was likely to malfunction. EVERYONE brought a gun that they felt would get through the match without a malfunction. Only 3 of the 14 entrants were right...

I'd sooner go buy a new gun than put that much money into the dirt in one day. Maybe some folks have money to blow on expensive ammo, I dunno.

So when you practice you use ONLY self-defense style ammunition? Or do you, perhaps, find some value in shooting less expensive "practice" FMJ ammo?

There was a time that I shot only my chosen carry load when I visited the range. I can't afford that these days, but I still get in a good bit of valuable range time thanks to budget ammunition. So far, at least, I've never felt that any time spent at the range amounted to "putting money into the dirt".

My gun wasn't all that dirty after the match. I cleaned it at the same time that I cleaned another pistol that had been shot less than 300 times since its last cleaning. Fouling accumulation wasn't noticeably different although it did take longer to get the barrel clean on the 1K gun.

Secondly, the guns seemed to run better as the match progressed. The average number of malfunctions actually decreased over time. Apparently a gun doesn't need to be spotless to run reliably.

First time I need 1000 rds in a fire fight I may go ahead & enter this match.

HALF of the guns malfunctioned in the first 50 rounds. One (that had been improperly lubricated) malfunctioned on the 12th round.

Besides, it's not just the gun & ammo, you're also part of the equation. While you'll never need to shoot 1000 rounds in a defensive scenario, it's very common to have to shoot from awkward positions, while fatigued or after being weakened from injury. A gun that needs a firm grip to function reliably might not be the best choice for a defensive weapon, and shooting 1000 rounds in a day is one way to find out how reliable a gun is after you become fatigued.

Lastly, while you may not need or want to know about the reliabilty of your gun/shooter/ammo combination, there are others who do, and there are interesting things to be learned by all from looking at the post-match analysis.

So you have a carry gun that functions flawlessly? Or perhaps you have a new home defense handgun you would like to put through its paces to see how well it can perform? Then this will be a fun and informative match for you!

2008's ISHOT1000 match was a great time and yielded some interesting results (see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... p?t=292012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). There are still some guns left untested and some questions to be answered so we are announcing the 2009 IISHOT1000 to be held on 2 May 2009 in Forestburg, Texas. (Forestburg is north of the DFW metroplex.)

The purpose of the match will be the same as last year - 1000 round function testing of guns to see which makes and models perform best. The match will also be designed to challenge the shooter, to be entertaining and to provide useful trigger time.

There will be no maintenance of ANY kind allowed during the course of twenty, 50 round stages. Malfunctions will be recorded and the results will be posted after the match. While the last match involved a lot of blasting at various stationary and moving targets but no accuracy scoring, this match will include some specific stages that will challenge shooter skills and further test the performance of the gun. At least four stages will be competitive shooter stages, of which two will address speed (best time) and two will address marksmanship (best score/group). All stages will be shot with a time limit.

Requirements:
Semi-auto carry/defense handgun (.380 caliber or larger)
8 magazines that hold at least 7 rounds each
Holster (or appropriate case)
Standard safety gear (eye/ear)
1000 rounds of factory ammunition (Reloads did not perform well at all last year. The match is not designed to test the reliability of ammunition but rather the reliability of the handguns.)
No Entry Fee is Required
Awards will be in the form of certificates which indicate the performance of the shooter/handgun combination.

Email Double Naught Spy at IISHOT1000@gmail.com with your email address if you are interested in participating.

Hope to see you there!