TexasCHLforum.com

CaptWoodrow10 wrote:Since the subject seems to tend toward cover and penetration, I would like to provide a link that may help to enlighten some of you as to the "myth of cover" as it were.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published.htm

The second article listed is entitled "The Myth of Cover". Extremely informative, and an excellent read. It is a PDF, so I couldn't link the article directly. Sorry. He has some other great articles on there as well, if you are so inclined.



FWIW; The author, and primary instructor of this school is an old neighbor of mine. Great guy, and always an extremely interesting conversation to be had.

(I am in no way affiliated with his training school, and I do not profit from posting his link.)

Paul Howe is the founder and owner of CSAT. I've had a couple opportunities to train with him directly rather than getting training from one of his prospective instructors. He's got a very direct but, down to earth approach to the material he's willing to share with civilians. While the last group I attended with felt he was being a bit too stern at times, I enjoyed every minute of it and recommend him. He's been making noises about retirement of late and I think it will be a shame for us as a shooting community to lose him as an instructor. He's got too much information and too broad a skill set to pass along to the next generation of professional gunmen and legally armed citizens alike.

glock27 wrote:i was thinking about this but in a theoretical self defense situation hopefully it will not turn into a gun fight and you would not need to fire morethan a few rounds. but better safe than sorry i beleive.

reason im asking is that i beleive a high quality JHP "ranger T, gold saber... etc) would not penetrate obsticals but how well do they?

can a JHP go thru a car door? or would it open up and have no purpose on the bg once it went through? when in this case one could pop in your FMJ magazine and get the BG much easily on the other side. obviously assuming there is no one behind him if over penetraion occured. or maybe not even a car door but any kind of obstical that a BG could bunker behind will fmj benefit over jhp?


g27

I'm going to suggest you look up FBI testing standards for duty ammo. Some of the very brands you mentioned have been tested specifically to verify they met minimum penetration standards after passing through the very barriers you've listed as items of concern. If you want an extra bit of insurance to be sure you'll have positive penetration and expansion though common barriers like car doors or auto glass, look for "bonded" hollowpoints such as Winchester Ranger "Bonded," Federal Tactical "Bonded," Remington Golden Saber "Bonded," Speer Gold Dot, or Corbon's solid copper DPX round.

I do not recommend FMJ as carry ammo in most cases because 99% of it is anemic ammunition that many departments specifically ban from carry on duty. FMJ is almost always loaded toward the lower end of the "acceptable" range of pressures and velocities for any given caliber. As such, it may very well be the FMJ bullet that fails to penetrate as expected or worse, causes a stoppage. Furthermore, there's little point in "switching" ammo with a pistol. No legally defensible shooting is likely to allow you the time to make the decision to switch in the first place so this is a non-sequitur.

To answer your latter questions; yes, as JHP bullet can go through a typical car door but, remember the door is composed of multiple layers of materials with several structures that can disrupt the path of any projectile going through the door. Typical auto body steel provides little resistance to any handgun bullet in a service caliber (9mm or larger). However, reinforcing structures designed to prevent vehicle intrusion, window regulators and the autoglass itself provide additonal barriers that may deflect or defeat a typical handgun bullet. Typical wallboard (sheetrock) and most interior residential construction is no different. That's why we often call hiding behind a car door concealment rather than cover. It is a little late to plan for it now but, perhaps at next year's CHL Forum day, we can make arraingments to do a class on cover/concealment that includes an opportunity for attendees to shoot through car doors or wallboards for demonstration purposes. The bottomline is, at typical handgun velocities, FMJ ammo provides little or no additional value with respect to penetrating barriers.

-GM